Ta152H-1 vs. Temp

[whgates3]

...even the Jug out-turns the Hog? i dont buy that for a second...

[Vermillion]

AHT is probably talking about a sustained 360 degree turn.  Even then I think I would probably disagree, since it could sustained outturn the P-51, P-47, and maybe the P-61 (no real idea on this one).  Maybe AHT isn't taking flaps into consideration, *shrugs*.

But the Corsair has incredible roll rate, excellent elevator response, excellent high speed handling, and one of the best instantaneous turn rates of the American fighters.  You just don't want too turn it more than 90 to 180 degrees in a fight.

Again, it all comes down to definition.

[GRUNHERZ]

Yep Verm it was fast, but don't discount the Bearcat as I heard that it was much faster than the common figures put it - something like 450mph at best alt. Plus it handily outclimbed your corsair, probably outrolled it, most certainly outacceled and outurned it. Maybe the porker F2G could dive better.

[F4UDOA]

Hehe Grunherz,

You are the ultimate aggitator.

However by your definition of what is a successful A/C then the F4U would be a clear winner over the Bearcat. The Bearcat was out of American service by 1950 and the F4U remained until the early 60's. Also notice the F2G had nearly twice the combat range and a much larger payload.

However in a match between the F2G and Bearcat I would say the Bearcat handles much like a Spitfire. Perhaps the ultimate dogfighter of all Props. However even the Spitty can be defeated with the use of proper tactics and Docterine.

In fact the former curator of the National Air and Space Museum Donald Engin who is a former fighter pilot and Commander of the the Aircraft Carrier USS America in the 1960's describes in his book "Wings and Warriors"(Smithsonian press) a dogfight held between an F4U-1D and F8F-1 when the Bearcat pilots became to "overbearing". This was a duel from a standing start on the runway side bye side and the F4U-1D using 20 degrees flap defeated the F8F.  After that they received F4U-4 the Bearcat pilots were less oppressive.

As a side note Marion Carl who flew both the F2G and Bearcat prefferred the Bearcat.

[GRUNHERZ]

IRRC the F4U1 guy cheated on that runway fight , anyway since no fights ever start side by side on a runway thats a funny story but quite irrelevant.  

Of course the F4U series was more succesful than F8F, thats a no brainer. With the coming of Navy jets the F8Fs obvious advantages in air combat became less relevant while the F4Us obvious advantages as a bomber came to the forefront so it was used more often.

Anyway say what you want but you can't change the fact that the F2G was canceled because Bearcat did the F2G mission better.  

[F4UDOA]

Wmaker,

The AHT chart is the most missunderstood piece of data I have ever seen.

The data Mr.Dean used in AHT for 3G stall speeds came from the Fighter meet at Patuxant River 1944. Mr.Dean Also edited that book which Schiffer published.

In any case a large number of pilots (about 70 in total) flew the various A/C that were there. They had a range of stall speeds for all A/C for 1G and 3G's. However for these reasons you have to take the speeds with a grain of salt.

1. They were just testing the Aircraft for flying qualities. Not Qualitative results. In other words everone flew under different conditions fuel loads et cetera. Not for determining the exact flight characteristics.

2. The F4U-1D had an average 3G stall of approx. 150knots. The FG-1D also tested had an avergae 3G stall of 130Knots. This is not mentioned in AHT. They are the same exact A/C.

3. The F8F-1 was also tested at this conferance with an average stall of 200Knots!!. Does this sound correct?

4. Knots and MPH are used interchangably throughout the report. It seems as if some numbers are mistated. Especially since some of the Cl max numbers are way off based on the stall speeds provided.


If you want a more accurate account of 3G stall speeds there are other reports available.  In fact the flight manuals are a great place to find stall charts. Also the Socioty of Experamental Aircraft did a test of these A/C in 1989. The numbers they got were much different using more modern test equipment.

[F4UDOA]

Negative Grunherz,

You missed my point. The F2G and F8F didn't have the same role. Meaning one could not replace the other. The F4U-4 caused the cancellation of the F2G. Not the F8F. The F8F didn't have the ordinace or the range to do what the F4U did.

Note the ordinance capabilty of the F2G Bomb and Rocket racks.

[GRUNHERZ]

I always read the F2G was designed as a fast climbing interceptor to counter Kamikaze attacks, is this incorrect?

[whgates3]

Vermillion - the P-61 had, due to it's unique control surfaces, could turn with the best of 'em (quite a surprise for such a behemoth, no?...Black Widow was the heaviest fighter of the war), however i have heard it gave up E quickly when doing so. i think the odd control surfaces keeps the P-61 out of flight sims - too hard to model - otherwise i would expect i would be very popular: very heavy armament (4 x 20mm + 4 x 0.50 turret - 0.50s can cover its own tail in a dogfight or fire foward, or anywhere in the upper hemisphere), could carry up to 6,400 lbs of underwing ordinance (4 hardpoints for bombs & 10 rockets), resonably fast (369 mph at 20000 ft, although some sites [ USAF at http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap25.htm ] quote as high as 437) , a good turner and i'm assuming that w/ 2 x P&W R-2800s & a heavy all metal body it was quite tough to kill - although i'm not sure if it could fly on only 1 engine like the P-38 could & the P-61's 1200 mile range is not bad either, better than a Mustang's...

[F4UDOA]

Negative Grunherz,

The Kamikazee killer is a myth. I believe it was flying before the first (designed) Kamikazee attack took place in fact.

Vought actually started the F2G program as the F4U-1WM. Here is the F4U-1 and F4U-1WM circa 1943 based on the paint. Goodyear took over the project in 1944 and added the bubble canopy.

[MiloMorai]

F4U, in G White's engine book, the same photo is captioned with P&W doing the installation of the R-4360 in the F4U-1, not Vought. Photo is
 courtesy of the New England Air Museum and P&W Aircraft.

Not say who is correct , just an alternate claim.

[-ammo-]

Verm--

How  did the P-47M compare to the F2G? I would imagine the the corsair was a bit faster at th lower alts. But the P-47M would outpace a F4U-4 at high alts, right?


I would love to see how the P-47M compared in the chart f4udoa

[Neil Stirling]

Tempest II performance, AIR 64/32.

[F4UDOA]

Heya Neil,


What fuel was the Tempest using during that test??

Have you seen the doc someone posted on these boards showing overboosted Spit XIV and P-51D. The pony was at about 425MPH I think.

Any luck with those Procat Docs??


Ammo,

The only P-47M charts I have ever seen come from AHT. Based on those I would say the P-47 is definitly faster about 25K on up. It would certainly be interesting in AH however with the current perk Icons I think it would share the same fate as any low perk bird in AH with a giant Gang Me sign on it. I have seen some out ragous numbers for the P-47M but I think they really come from the P-47J. For some reason not all of the aircraft data is that easy to come by.

BTW I have always felt that the F4U-4 data is valid in AH but the worst possible data of all of the charts I have seen. They also come from AHT.

[F4UDOA]

Here is the data I was speaking of.