Author Topic: [zepps_essays] Propaganda (Read 1157 times)

Fatty · « **Reply #15 on:** August 30, 2002, 08:02:37 AM »

Quote

Back around 1980, when BBSes - the local ASCII equivalents of Usenet - first showed up, extremists in the White Power and Nazi movements were delighted. At last, they had a cheap and - they thought - effective method of getting their message out to the masses. They were convinced that only the ignorance of the sheep prevented Hitler's vision from becoming America's future.

This caused considerable consternation. It was pretty horrific to contemplate that the computer - the cutting edge of humanity's technology and ingenuity, and the new incredible frontier in communication - was being perverted to such ends. More than one person was struck by the juxtaposition of brilliance and vileness.

Many of us quickly realized the best thing to do about the hate mongers was to let them put up their own boards and propagate to their heart's content.

Hrm, a third rate columnist? A half-assed website that looks thrown together by a 10 year old learning html? Unfortunately having read this and the last one you posted I doubt he's bright enough to see the irony.

H. Godwineson · « **Reply #16 on:** August 30, 2002, 08:14:05 AM »

10Bears,

Hitler was the leader who believed in the Big Lie. Do you mean to say that you took what he said about being a Catholic during a public speach seriously?!

Do you really mean to compare Republicans and other members of the political right to neo-Nazis?

Would you take it amiss if we of the right compare the members of the left to Stalinists?

Regards, Shuckins

Ripsnort · « **Reply #17 on:** August 30, 2002, 08:20:09 AM »

Articles as 10bears shows the true desparation of the left....read on:

Quote

The Left has lost its way and
lost its voice
Camille Paglia

The language of leftism is out of date. It desperately
needs reconstruction and revitalisation, if the Left is
ever to regain its proper status as a voice of ethical
critique of materialistic modern society.

As a registered Democrat who voted for the fringe-left
Ralph Nader for President in 2000, I am well aware of
the decline in prestige and effectiveness of leftist
organisations since their high point in the 1960s. The
large demonstrations against globalisation two years
ago, for example, made scarcely a ripple in the US and
have already been forgotten. One problem is that too
many leftist periodicals are run by callow cliques whose
vaunted populism is a mask for snobbery.

Leftist analysis has been slow to adjust to the massive
expansion of the service sector after the Second World
War. In the US, salaries of skilled manual labourers
have long exceeded those of mid-level office staff.
Leftists consistently misinterpret mass media and new
technology, which they treat with paranoid theories of
manipulation and “commodification” coined by writers
schooled before the Second World War (before the birth
of television).

The communications revolution has blurred traditional
class lines. But the Left still doggedly invokes
paradigms from early industrialisation, applicable today
only to the Third World. It finds “oppression” under every
rock and reduces contemporary society to rote battles of
the “powerful” and the “powerless”.

The Left is wilfully blind to the enormous contributions
that capitalism has made to democracy and
individualism. Over the past two centuries capitalism
has raised the standard of living and enhanced the
health and life expectancy for untold millions in the West
and elsewhere. It has stimulated new ideas and
fostered free speech.

When they call for the redistribution of wealth, leftists
are endorsing an authoritarian system that, wherever it
has been tried, has resulted in economic stagnation
and a sapping of cultural energy. Such concentration of
power in the State creates its own tyrannical master
class. Without the profit motive, few are inclined to work
for long. The play of the market, rather than government
engineering, is more reliable for long-term job creation.
When jobs are varied and plentiful, ethnic and racial
tensions diminish.

Only a lunatic fringe on the far Left is still calling for
revolution, a smashing of the social order, but it must
be acknowledged how widespread that idea was in the
1960s. Most leftists do believe that, without them, the
naive proletariat would wallow for ever in ignorance and
slavery. Unless they are volunteering hands-on service
in blighted neighbourhoods, however, most leftists are
far removed from working-class life. Many are
wordsmiths — journalists or academics who run in
packs. Leftism has become wordplay — a refuge for
bourgeois intellectuals guilty about their comfort and
privilege.

The crisis of the Left was signalled 20 years ago by
academe’s retreat into post-structuralism — an elitist,
jargon-filled methodology practised by literati with scant
knowledge of history. In the US, liberalism too is
confused, alternating between a genteel
humanitarianism credulously craving government
programmes to an overtly Machiavellian power politics.

Because the Left has been programmatically
anti-business, it has been unable to reform the
business practices that generate prosperity in the West.
A strong, articulate Left could have roused public
resistance to the Marie Antoinette corporate culture of
the past 15 years, which climaxed in recent revelations
of monumental fraud.

As smaller companies were swallowed up in
transnational conglomerates, plant closings produced
superficial cost-cutting, rewarded by skyrocketing
compensation for top management. Boards of directors
went limp, while stockholders were helpless. An
honest, respected Left would have been well positioned
to render aid when and where it was needed.

The most radical task facing contemporary leftism is a
purgation and reclamation of its own rhetoric.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3284-385779,00.html

lord dolf vader · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2002, 09:08:35 AM »

i was raised by a old fasioned republican policman/ww2vet and followed his political lead till i screwed up and joined the navy befor finishing college.I ad to live with the "trash" and then work with the "workers".now i am a confirmed liberal democrat because as bad as the liberals are the conservitives are worse. guys here who spend their whole day posting on bbs on the company dime while others work thier way to a early grave. and have the audacity to pretend they have it hard. buying austentatious toys to brag about while 30 million people in our own country cant make 14 k a year ( and yea they work). racist to the core but will deny it all day long ( 2 beers and no black folk around and the n word flys) you have to be a lyin evil bastard to be a conservive these days sorry its the truth.

10Bears · « **Reply #19 on:** August 30, 2002, 09:14:28 AM »

With the exception of Miko or Shuckins none of you have addressed the points of the article.. You’ve either attacked me for posting it or the author...

For the record Kieran I’ve never called you a nazi. I’ve called some of your thinking leading down the road nazi like. If you supported Slobo you supported a real deal nazi.

Hitler was the leader who believed in the Big Lie. Do you mean to say that you took what he said about being a Catholic during a public speach seriously?!

No of course not but his speeches and writings are all we have to go on. Private conversations with associates don’t count if they were not recorded on tape. Like the article above states and I’ve seen it myself, is a movement by certain quarters of the hard right to separate as far as possible Hitler’s true religious beliefs from Christianity. But when we study his speeches we find numerous references to Catholism. Just like many politicians today, he used religion as a prop to stand behind and to gather the masses.

Do you really mean to compare Republicans and other members of the political right to neo-Nazis?

Rank and file Republicans of course not, but have you ever seen skinhead rallies KKK rallies, Council for Concerned Citizens, whatshisname the author for the “Turner Diaries” the American Bund, Serbian Unity Congress, and other hate groups all have a cousin, a link in the GOP yes.
Again what the above article points out in that a healthy society groups like this don’t really get much traction. But if something happens like a major war or depression nationalism starts to take hold. It’s their fault, it’s us against them.. we have to do a pre emptive strike now. We must protect our way of life and so on. For nationalism to take root you need an object of hate. Hate is always an easier emotion than acceptance and understanding. It doesn’t really matter who the object of hate is, it could be hate the gays or hate the minorities or hate the Arabs. Just as long as we have the “them” to hate the “us“.. are united.

If you agree with this, than you agree with the article above.

Would you take it amiss if we of the right compare the members of the left to Stalinists?

That wouldn’t be really fair, true liberalism or libertarianism celebrates the individual Stalin hardly had any use for this.

Toad · « **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2002, 09:19:44 AM »

Well, I don't bother to read stuff from any author who's best literary talent and strongest argument is making up second grade names for people.

Sorry, just not enough time. I prefer writers that can make a point with facts.... not by calling people names.

Just me I guess. So many articles, so little time.

As to the content of this one.. check Fatty's post again. He pretty much nailed it.

midnight Target · « **Reply #21 on:** August 30, 2002, 09:38:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Well, I don't bother to read stuff from any author who's best literary talent and strongest argument is making up second grade names for people.

---snip----

Seems like a good match for Anne Coulter.....Anti Anne. Both use the same type of propagandish style and inviction.

miko2d · « **Reply #22 on:** August 30, 2002, 09:45:28 AM »

10Bears: Fascinating truly... Miko tells us that only Hitler’s private un-recorded conversations show the real Hitler.

Where does that come from? Who gives you the right to put crap into my mouth? Did I ever mentioned his private un-recorded conversations? I thought any person who is interested in Hitler and not an ignorant dolt could go to Amazon, punch in his name and get Hitler's TableTalk - 800 pages hardcover of his nightly conversations with close friends and secretaries recoded carefully by two stenographers - it is commonly known that practically every word of his was recorded and those records must be somewhere, right?. I was looking for them for a while (in English) and in October 2000 that one finally came out.

Also, "Mein Kampf" while not private is clearly not directed towards general public but towards his party comrades as a action manual. Hitler gives advice that he expect to really work - so there is a minimum of propaganda there. If german people in 30s really read the "most published" book that everyone owned, they would have seen what he realy thinks of them and what his speeches are worth - he is making absolutely no secret there.

But no, you could not be bothered to look or ask me where did I get my info - you just assumed I make stuff up.

By the way - I do oppose Iraqi invason and do find a lot of the analogies with european history compelling. While I do not believe Bush and republicans evil, I consider them misguided.
Another by the way - I do not make a claim that Hitler was or was not an atheist - just that the autor has no clue about Hitler because he is using the source that Hitler himself admitted as mostly lies and propaganda.

As for the author - he is obviously an anti-cristian socialist and any one with half a brain will see it from this writing - he attempts to disguise it but very thinly:
Do not believe that Hussein is republican because his guard is called Republican Guard - everything republican is good and pure and never makes war and Hussein is Evil! He cannot be a republican! (By the way, he is still preferable to our republicans which are really nazis - let's keep Hussein and get rid of Bush instead!)
Do not believe that Hitler was a socialist just because his party was called Socialist and his economic policies were pure socialist! We all know that socialists are good and warm and cuddly and Hitler was Evil! He could not have been a socialist!
What, Hitler said he was a christian? Sure, we believe him. We all know that christians are mean and evil and all xenocidal maniacs! Of course Hiter was a christian!
And by the way, our republicans are christian right and must be nazis themselves.

I bet that if find out which "right wing bozo wrote a book saying this, based on nothing more than the fact that the name of Hitler's party was "The National SOCIALIST Party". ", I will find that the same book that the bozo examined his socialist economic policies, not just the party label as a basis for his opinion.

While I am an atheist and libertarian, this kind of attempt to slander catholicism, bash christianity, equate republicans with nazis and whitewash socialism is disgusting to me!

miko

Toad · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2002, 10:11:43 AM »

I don't read Coulter either.

There's too many good, intelligent, skillful journalists out there to bother with second-rate hacks.

Elfenwolf · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2002, 10:28:36 AM »

BAH!! One more left vs. right argument that will go nowhere nor convince anyone to change their point of view. Many have you have gone out of your way to call me names this week and- Well, I don't need this. I have a full weekend lined up- This afternoon I'm cruising to Yosemite to scale El Capitan, Saturday I'm going skydiving and Sunday I'm going scuba diving with great white sharks. I'll see ya Monday and does anybody have some chum I can borrow?

john9001 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 30, 2002, 10:43:44 AM »

Elfenwolf...be carefull

funkedup · « **Reply #26 on:** August 30, 2002, 03:14:33 PM »

Towd do you really believe stereotypes like that? How sad.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #27 on:** August 30, 2002, 03:31:48 PM »

Elfen- just make sure you use your skydiving gear for rock climbing, your scuba diving gear for skydiving and your rock climbing gear for swimming with the Great Whites.
-SW

wulfie · « **Reply #28 on:** August 30, 2002, 05:31:56 PM »

10Bears:

Answer 2 questions for me.

1. (YES or NO) Is Iraq in direct violation of the cease fire that they signed before the U.N. that was the cause for cessation of hostilities vs. Iraq?

2. In your opinion, why does Iraq refuse to allow U.N. (NOTE: U.N., as opposed to U.S.) WMD inspection teams into Iraq? Keep in mind that Iraq's failure to allow such inspection teams into Iraq is a major cause for the continuing import/export/trade restrictions levied against Iraq by the U.N.

Mike/wulfie

lord dolf vader · « **Reply #29 on:** August 30, 2002, 06:58:18 PM »

sorry but if alot of people are stereotypical ( and i believe they are) the use a stereotype is appropriate.

the left and right are getting further apart. we all know the reasons. i wont rant . but i was born into the conservative side and lived it till i was 23. then i opted out, to many lies and half truths and screwing people for fun . just not my cup of tea.