Author Topic: New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!  (Read 982 times)

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« on: September 09, 2002, 11:26:42 AM »
I would like to preface this post by stating that I am only an average fighter pilot (if I'm lucky), so take everything I say with a grain of salt.  I am only posting this so that some pilots new to flight sims can benefit from my experience.

I have been flying AH somewhat consistently for about 9 or 10 months now.  Before I began flying AH, I had no experience with flight sims, on-line or otherwise.  When I first started flying, it was brutal and demoralizing.  I got killed five or ten times for every time I got lucky and managed to shoot someone down.  In attempt to get better, I read everything I could find on ACM (i.e., air combat maneuvers) and BFM (i.e., basic flight maneuvers), including Shaw's book on fighter combat and the plethora of articles at http://www.simhq.com and other places on the web.  (If you're as new to this as I was, there is no substitute for a little education.)  I also spent a good deal of time reading this board, and while I did garner a good bit of useful information, I also read a number of posts that, in retrospect, I believe hindered my progress.

In particular, if you spend any amount of time at all perusing this board, you will find, as I did, many posts deriding planes like the several Spitfires, labeling them "dweeb" planes or the like.  Many of those posts also make claims like "You will never learn to fly ACM or BFM if you fly planes like the Spit."  The upshot of thoses posts is that to learn to fly in any manner other than just pulling as hard as your plane will allow in a flat circle, you have to learn to fly more "challenging" planes, like the American or LW rides (Note: with the addition of the F4F and FM2 to AH's plane set, the Americans now have planes that share some of the "dweeby" characteristics of the Spitfires).  Thus, in a desire to get better and to avoid exploiting some "unfair" advantage of the "dweeby" planes, I spent the better part of a year struggling to get better while largely avoiding the Spitfire.

Now that I have been flying the Spits (IIc, V, and IX) fairly regularly for a bit, I have some observations on why I think that they are excellent planes for new (and old) pilots to fly and in which to learn ACM/BFM:

1.  As you will soon find out, a high percentage of the planes that you will encounter in the Main Arena are "dweeby" planes.  A typical (but probably incomplete) list of "dweeb" planes is: any Spit, N1K2-J, La-7, and Yak-9u.

NOTE:  As far as I can tell, the following factors contribute to a plane being labeled "dweeby": (a) it has multiple cannons, particularly the Hispanos of the British planes; (b) it maintains its e (i.e.,energy) while maneuvering relatively well; (c) it accelerates and/or climbs relatively well; (d) it is relatively fast.

If you choose to fly one of the more "challenging" planes and actually want to dogfight, you will find, particularly when starting out, that you can only successfully engage one of the "dweeb" planes if you have a considerable energy (i.e., speed, altitude, or both) advantage at the outset.  Thus, you will be in the unpleasant position of having to run from every co-e (i.e., equal energy) Spit, La-7, or N1K2-J that you encounter.  That is not only no fun and not instructive, but also it fosters a defensive, unagressive mindset.  

2.  As a follow-on from the previous point, the only way to learn to survive in a dogfight is to actually dogfight.  You can read all you can find on yo-yos, barrel rolls, lag displacement rolls, scissors, rolling scissors, etc., but until you have performed those maneuvers often enough that they become second nature, you will never be able to rely on them in combat.  Thus, repetition is the key.  Flying the more "challenging" planes, you will find yourself either running or making quick, hit-and-run passes most of the time (or else, when you are new, you will be dying quickly and often).  As a consequence, you simply will not have the opportunity to develop those ACM/BFM skills.  Many of the pilots that post on these boards have been flying on-line flight sims for years and probably cannot remember the time when basic ACM/BFM was not second nature.  But to the new pilot (at least to me), ACM/BFM is anything but intuitive.

3.  In my experience, one of the best (and most enjoyable) environments in which to dogfight is field or fleet defense.  In those situations, you will typically find your field or carrier being assaulted by hordes of fighters, all of which will have an energy advantage over planes like yours that are just taking off.  If you manage to get airborne, you will likely find yourself awash in a sea of red icons.  In those situations, planes like the Spit V and Spit IIc really shine, because they are quite maneuverable at relatively low speeds (the corner velocity (i.e., optimal turning speed) for a Spit V at sea level is probably not much more than 200 or 225 mph) and will tend to retain their energy well during agressive maneuvering.  This is perhaps the ideal environment in which to quickly amass dogfighting experience; there may be no better "target-rich environment" in the game.  A side benefit of flying in these sorts of environments is that you will naturally improve your SA (situational awareness) and your ability to mentally track multiple contacts.  You will also learn how to neutralize a bogey's energy advantage.  Once you can get a less maneuverable fighter into a situation where it has expended its energy advantage, you have gone most of the way to winning the fight.

The Spits are well-armed with dual cannons, and this is a very good opportunity to exploit those cannons and get better at deflection shooting (i.e., shooting from a position other than directly behind your opponent).  This is one thing that I am not very good at but which is absolutely critical if you are ever going to fly a "more challenging" fighter.  In planes like the P51, P47, or Dora, you will rarely be able to "saddle up" on a bogey's six o'clock for a zero-deflection shot.  Instead, most of your shots will be high-speed, (realatively) high deflection shots.  

4.  Flying planes like the Spit, you will often find yourself "bounced" by higher fighters like the P51, P47, Dora, Bf 109, etc.  You will quickly find out that such "bounces" are relatively simply to counter, provided you see your attacker.  Learning how to avoid such passes will make you better if you eventually decide to fly planes like those (actually, you can quite successfully fly the Spit IIc, V, or IX as a "boom-and-zoom" plane), beause you will understand the evasive maneuvers that your opponent is likely to employ.  

5.  I believe that one key to being a successful dogfighter is outthinking your opponent.  A primary aspect of doing so is understanding, visualizing, and exploiting the geometry of the fight.  In my experience, this is the most challenging aspect of ACM/BFM, but to be really accomplished (which I certainly am not), I think you must master this (which I have not).  (I think that exploiting geometry is even more important when flying the more "challenging" planes.)  Again, the only way to master geometry is to dogfight, which you will probably find yourself doing more often in a plane like a Spit than in a P51, P47 or Dora.

6.  Dogfighting and using ACM/BFM (as opposed to just pulling as hard as you can, trying to gain angles on your bogey) has the ancillary benefit of helping you to become proficient with the AH view system.  Because you will find yourself in all conceivable relative positions with respect to your bogey, it will become second nature to use the AH's (excellent) view system to keep a tally on him.

7. There is one aspect of fighter combat that you need not master in order to be somewhat successful in a Spit: energy conservation and management.  You can often get a kill in a Spit, pulling as hard as you can and expending most of your available energy cache.  The typical result, particularly in a furball environment, is that you are low and slow and easy prey for any enemey fighter that has some energy in the bank.  If you discipline yourself by conserving energy and expending it only when necessary to give you the kill or gain a decisive advantrage, you will find yourself getting shot down much less frequently and getting multi-kill sorties.  One way to do this without really thinking about it is to try to turn in the vertical, rather than purely horizontal (when you go "up," you are necessarily converting some of your speed to potential energy, thus conserving it).  As you learn to exploit the geometry of dogfights, you will naturally find yourself turning in the vertical anyway.  A side benefit is that you are learning good habits that will translate well to whatever plane you may choose to fly.  Indeed, to fly the more "challenging" fighters well, you must focus on energy management.  I believe that this is why some folks who fly those planes instruct new pilots not to "learn bad habits" in planes like the Spits.

8.  In my opinion, dogfighting is just more fun than making repeated, boom-and-zoom passes the way that most P51 and 190 pilots fly (the 190-A5 is actually a very capable dogfighter, although given pilots of equal ability, it will usually lose a co-e engagement with a Spitfire).  There are many very good pilots who fly those planes much more agressively and, I believe, to much greater effect.  To do so, however, requires mastery of all of the ACM/BFM skills that I believe you can learn most quickly by flying a plane like one of the Spitfires. If you just jump into a P51, P47, or Dora and try to dogfight in it, I think you will quickly get discouraged.

So, go ahead and fly your Spit--you can have fun and get better at the same time!

- JNOV

Offline Innominate

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2002, 12:24:17 PM »
Better advice for new pilots:

Fly EVERY plane.  Find one you enjoy.  It doesn't matter what it is, as long as you have fun in it.

The first things any new pilot should do is, practice gunnery and SA.  Save ACM for later.  The best way to do this is to find the furballs and dive into them.

Offline Geeesy

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2002, 01:46:09 PM »
Nice Spitfire propaganda.;)

Well I for one belong to those guys avoiding flying the Spitfire, so I may be one guy of the anti-Dweebfire fraction. Then again I like the Yak-9U so I may be a Dweeb myself (well i admitt it I am a Dweeb). :D

Against the most propaganda against the Spitfire I think it is a pretty poor plane. Don't get me wrong it really is a nice plane which is nice to fly and so, but it doesn't have this miracle "press for kill" button most people seem to see in it.
The Spit 9 for example is good in most aspects (turn, climb, E retention, roll rate), but it is not the best in any one of them. Most planes of the planeset can top the spit 9 in one or two certain points. The P-51 is faster, the P-38 the better allrounder, the 190 and Yak outrolls it, the niki's and zeke's outturns it and some of the 109's outclimbs it while the ones which doesn't outturn it. So a good pilot who knows the good sides of his plane will be able to spot the one or other aspect which he can use to catch the spit or at least to don't let the spit 9 to catch him. So after all the basic principle of flying the Spit 9 succesfull is to hope to meet not very good pilots who make enough mistakes to let you kill them. Also you don't necessary need pilots worse than yourself. You just have to run into peoples who are bad with the certain plane they're flying like the P-51, so you can get them shot down, while they might be better pilots if you would meet them spit 9 vs spit 9... I think that's what make the Spitfires a Dweeb plane for so great many. But actually it is more likely a "Dweebhunter" plane, because you get only pilots who make mistakes with their rides or just lose the patience, which is also a big mistake I do quite frequently.;)

Well I for one don't like to rely on the hope that all the other guys I run into are not very well skilled pilots. I like to have a crate that is equipped to counter aces, so when I get shot down I can't blame the plane. After all (to use Chuck Yeager) it's the man not the machine, isn't it?;)

But after all that is all wasted time, since you can't order folks what they have to fly, can you? (uhm HT could... ;) )
« Last Edit: September 09, 2002, 01:56:51 PM by Geeesy »

Offline jonnyb

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2002, 02:15:26 PM »
The best way to learn a plane is to fly it.  Sure, you may get shot down a whole lot more in a plane you're unfamiliar with, but you gain the advantage of knowing how that plane flies, and what its strengths and weaknesses are.  As an example, I fly the P51B regularly.  It is my "main" ride.  However, I will up different planes to see what kind of characteristics they have.  I can then utilize my knowledge to better fight against them when I'm back in the cockpit of my pony.

It all boils down to what you love.  If you're a diehard spitfire fan, then fly it.  If you're a huge fan of the Dora, then fly that.  Don't worry about what anyone else claims, because each and every plane will be called a dweeb ride by someone.  Granted, some will not be referred to as often -- ie I don't recall hearing anyone call a P40B a dweeb ride.

As was said, it can be very frustrating trying to learn to fly your favorite plane, especially when there are hordes of "dweeb" planes all around.  Practice your gunnery.  Then, practice it some more.  Oh, one final thing, don't spray and pray...especially from distances of over 1k...that is the definition of dweebery ;)

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2002, 02:33:22 PM »
Thanks for the replies.  

Innominate:  (Nice (un)name, by the way!)  I do not necessarily disagree with you--you won't last long in a furball without good SA and you won't kill anyone if you can't shoot!  But I was motivated to write the post because I have been frustrated and confused trying to use ACM/BFM principles in my flying and because flying the Spits helped me with that problem.  

Moreover, my gunnery (which, admittedly, is still not very good) has improved by flying planes that enable me to stay engaged for longer periods of time.  For me, it was hard to get better when most of my shots were of the snap variety, made in quick, high-speed passes at extreme angles.  If you get to practice with tracking shots, where you have a prolonged opportunity to observe the tracers' trajectories (and how those trajectories are affected by the g-load on your plane, convergence settings, etc.) with respect to your bogies, I think that you get better (at least I have).  Spits are one plane (there are others, obviously) that can provide gun solutions yielding those types of shots on a regular basis.  Plus, the Spits' Hispanos have flatter trajectories than the other cannons in the game, so the difficult task of estimating the appropriate lead and drop is less complicated for a new pilot than it would be if he were flying, say, a 109.

Also, when I was new, I found it difficult to jump from plane to plane.  The AH flight models are of sufficient fidelity that there are considerable differences from plane to plane (even from Spit to Spit, 109 to 109, or 190 to 190), so if you're never flown in a flight sim before, continually switching planes can be a bit disorienting (at least it was for me).  I do see the value in it, however, if only to learn the other planes' capabilities and weaknesses.

Geeesy:  The point of the post was not to tout the Spits as the ultimate planes.  (Although I do think that a case can be made for the Spit IX as one of the most balanced dogfighters in the plane set, because it bridges the gap between the energy and angles fighters quite nicely, climbs and accelerates well, and has a good cannon package.)  The point of the post was really just to encourage new pilots who would fly the Spits but for the "dweeb" label to go ahead and do so.  I wish I had flown the Spit consistently when I first started out and was trying to figure out how to employ abstract ACM/BFM principles in my flying.

- JNOV

Offline Oldman731

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2002, 03:02:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
The point of the post was really just to encourage new pilots who would fly the Spits but for the "dweeb" label to go ahead and do so.  I wish I had flown the Spit consistently when I first started out and was trying to figure out how to employ abstract ACM/BFM principles in my flying.

I pretty much agree with you.  A grimly-determined aviation fan will learn in any plane.  He'll keep coming back for more, no matter how many times he gets shot down, and ultimately will learn how to do ACM.  This was the route I took when I first learned.  In retrospect, I probably would have learned it quicker by flying a more user-friendly plane, like the spit, that gives you the occasional kill to keep your morale from plummeting.  I doubt that I am any better just because I learned on a harder plane.  I suspect that there are a lot of people who aren't grimly-determined aviation fans, who would like to have some fun at this, and who get tired of being repeatedly blasted out of the air.  You don't learn how to drive a car by starting with an Indy racer, nor, in fact, do you learn to fly an airplane by starting with a 747.

I think that those of us who talk about spitdweebs are really making fun of those pilots who have already acquired good ACM skills, yet continue to use the spit (or the Niki, or the La7).  There's a sense that you should push yourself up the challenge ladder, rather than continuing to use the magic planes to beat up on people.

Or so it seems to me, at least.

- oldman

Offline AvidMC

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2002, 04:39:24 PM »
Quote
I think that those of us who talk about spitdweebs are really making fun of those pilots who have already acquired good ACM skills, yet continue to use the spit (or the Niki, or the La7). There's a sense that you should push yourself up the challenge ladder, rather than continuing to use the magic planes to beat up on people.


Right on the money Oldmn!!! There is always the "it's my 15 dollars" argument but I can't help thinking how much more satisfaction I get from landing kills in a plane that really makes ya earn them.

I would say that you become a much smarter pilot by flying more challenging planes. You can't just dive in and go for broke in them, you have to have a lot more discipline. I would also disagree with the insinuation from the original poster that  this make for a less aggressive pilot. You can be just as aggressive in a Jug or P40 or other non furballer (for lack of a better name) aircraft. You just have to know when to do it and when to hold off until you have the advantage.  And before you can make that decision you have to have developed damned goo SA skills.

For the newbies, grab a spit, niki or LA-7, I will even advise you to do so. But if you have it mastered then move on....or be labeled a Dweeb!!!

That's my arrogant annoying 2 cents worth,

Avid

Offline Innominate

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2002, 04:56:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AvidMC


Right on the money Oldmn!!! There is always the "it's my 15 dollars" argument but I can't help thinking how much more satisfaction I get from landing kills in a plane that really makes ya earn them.


The $15 argument is bull, considering I pay my $15 too.  Just because you cough up $15 a month doesn't make you special in any way.

The "dweeb" planes are EXCELLENT newbie planes, for just that reason.  But once you start getting kills in them, it's time to move on to something new.  Once you have the basics of flying and shooting down, the higher eny planes are a hell of a lot more fun.  

As for new pilots, don't worry about being a dweeb untill you're a good enough pilot that you should know better.

Offline RightF00T

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2002, 06:39:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Innominate


The $15 argument is bull, considering I pay my $15 too.  Just because you cough up $15 a month doesn't make you special in any way.

The "dweeb" planes are EXCELLENT newbie planes, for just that reason.  But once you start getting kills in them, it's time to move on to something new.  Once you have the basics of flying and shooting down, the higher eny planes are a hell of a lot more fun.  

As for new pilots, don't worry about being a dweeb untill you're a good enough pilot that you should know better.


How do you decide whats fun for someone else?

Offline Dead Man Flying

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2002, 08:01:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
I think that those of us who talk about spitdweebs are really making fun of those pilots who have already acquired good ACM skills, yet continue to use the spit (or the Niki, or the La7).  There's a sense that you should push yourself up the challenge ladder, rather than continuing to use the magic planes to beat up on people.


Maybe some of us Spitdweebs have flown a large collection of planes regularly and with a great deal of success over the years, but we have decided to fly Spits because they're fun and a challenge in their own right.

Magic planes.  LOL!

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2002, 08:12:45 PM »
The notion that you don't "earn" your kills when flying a Spit is laughable, particularly if you fly it in situations where you are consistently outnumbered and at an energy disadvantage (e.g., field defense).  If you are flying a P-51, P-47, Dora, etc. and get shot down by a Spit, either you did something unwise (e.g., got low and slow) or the Spit driver really "earned" his kill by anticipating your flight path and bisecting it with his cannons (i.e., by understanding and exploiting the geometry of the fight).  Furthermore, many (if not most) of the planes that I encounter are other Spits, N1K2-Js, or La-7s.  

The reason that I like to fly Spits is because I like to knife fight.  The Spit is a better plane for that than the P-51, P-47, Dora, etc.  Sure, you can knife fight in the heavy American or LW iron, but I for one am not good enough to be successful doing so.  When you use a plane like a P-51, P-47, or Dora to dogfight, you are using it in a manner other than that for which it was designed.  So, if you are successful doing so, then you are very skilled indeed.  Most of the folks that I see flying those planes like that get killed, however, and I see more people flying them closer to the way that they were designed to be flown.  It seems very unlikely that someone new to this genre is going to hop into a Jug and dogfight successfully.

I just don't think there's anything "magic" about the Spits.  None of them are very fast, and their climb and acceleration is only adequate (see the excellent charts at http://www.netaces.org).  They do hold energy well when maneuvering, but that is by design--they are light, relatively slow planes.  If you are flying a faster, heavier plane, it will not retain energy as well under high-g loading.  That is by design as well.  (I will concede that in my completely uninformed opinion, the Spit IX seems to dive and handle at high speed better than I would expect.  It seems to almost never compress, except for rolling a bit sluggishly at very high speeds.  For that reason, I would much rather boom-and-zoom in a Spit IX and maybe even a Spit V than in a 109 of any stripe.)

Look at the numbers on Innominate's (excellent, by the way) web page (http://www.innomi.com/planes.php?sortby=killp_sort).  The Spit IX's K/D ratio is barely over 1 (about the same as the P-51's), and the V's is below one.  Hardly marks of uber planes.  Granted, those K/D numbers probably belie the Spits' capabilities, as they are, to a certain extent, attributable to the fact that the average Spit pilot is likely less skilled than, say, the average 190 D-9 pilot.  (Having said that, however, it is easier to live to fight another day in planes like the P-51 or Dora that can dictate the terms of the fight by disengaging at will.)  In any case, I just don't understand why so many people make so much noise about a couple of planes that kill no more than they die.  

If your point is that a pilot with a given K/D flying a P47D-11 is better than a pilot with the same K/D flying a Spit IX, I would say that in many cases you would be correct.  I can live with that. :)  Given my meager skills, AH is plenty challenging enough without my making it moreso by using the wrong tool for the job.  

- JNOV

Offline cp52

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Fly whatever you like
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2002, 09:30:55 AM »
I like LoneStarBuckeye’s point that its ok to fly Spits!  It’s ok to fly whatever you want, actually.  Most of the people complaining about dweebs have just been shot down by them so I love to hear that talk. :)
I am actually an La-7 dweeb for a couple of reasons; 1- it fits me.  I started out flying Spits in AW and never did very well but when I learned more about energy fighting and tried various rides I came to love the Me109J (AW only) with the 35mm cannon and lots of speed.  It suited my style of flying and the LA7 does that here.  2- Some people say you should move on after you master a plane and I agree to some extent but if I don’t fly often I lose my touch.  I would be at a big disadvantage if I fly rarely and keep switching planes- I’m just not that good a pilot!
Good post LoneStarBuckeye and I hope it helps Newbies find their plane.

Offline akak

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Re: Fly whatever you like
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2002, 09:46:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cp52

  I started out flying Spits in AW and never did very well but when I learned more about energy fighting and tried various rides I came to love the Me109J (AW only) with the 35mm cannon and lots of speed.  


AW had the E,F,G and K models of the bf109.  The K-4 had the 30mm cannon, not 35mm.


ack-ack

Offline keyapaha

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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2002, 10:37:14 AM »
have to agree with DMF  I have flown mainly axis planes with the exception of the la5 and yak9t  but this tour I am flying the spitfire mkI  so far no kills but it is very fun to fly

Offline cp52

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Re: Re: Fly whatever you like
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2002, 10:40:28 AM »
AW had the E,F,G and K models of the bf109.  The K-4 had the 30mm cannon, not 35mm.

Absolutely right, thanks for the correction!  Its been a while, now.