so long, Constitution...

[whgates3]

i dont think any gov't ever stops any crime, from dope smokin' right up to the big t. gov't just punishes the unlucky SOB they finger for the crime after the fact, but the damage is already done, so why give up rights?
for that matter why have gov't? insurance is cheaper.

[DmdBT]

Originally posted by 10Bears

Fine, but what if we go in there kill thousands of Iraqi citizens and don’t find any WMD?... Do we just say well we’re sorry?

If that ends up being the case then the US will be planting WMD material all over Iraq faster than a white cop planting a gun on an unarmed black man he just shot in an inner city.

Lonz

[Thrawn]

OK, since you seem so willing to sacrifice 150,000 American a year let me ask you what sacrifice you have made to defend your rights? Furthermore, it would seem that since your so willing to die for the perceived loss of rights what are you in fact willing to do to preserve them?

I never said that or even implied it.  

As for what I would do to preserve my rights.  I've been luckily enough not to have been in that situation.  My government tried to pass a similar bill, to your Patrot Act, but it didn't fly.

A lot of talk about lost freedoms. Most of it in very general terms without specifics or real effect.

I suggest you read the first post in this thread to see what the "real" affect seems to be.  As this is what the thread was about.

Security vs Freedom has always been a compomise. When the threat is greater you compromise more.

If this is the case, then once again, I wonder how the US could have revolted against Great Britain at all.  It seems to me that you are saying that you only fight for your rights when it is convient.  If it was convient I don't imagine that you would have had to fight in the first place.

Military people understand this. When a country goes to war we all become more like soldiers.

I don't think you speak for all miliary peoples.  So ,the US is at war.  Out of curiosity, when does that war end?  I really don't see an end to all international terrorism any time soon, I guess you are all like soliers unto perpetuaty?

When the threat is gone demand whatever rights you feel you've lost back. Die for them then if you must.

I don't imagine that the threat will ever be gone.  Not fully at least.  In the mean time you still have to exist with your government.  And I think that is what this thread is about.

[AKIron]

"If this is the case, then once again, I wonder how the US could have revolted against Great Britain at all. It seems to me that you are saying that you only fight for your rights when it is convient. If it was convient I don't imagine that you would have had to fight in the first place."

I read the initial post as well as yours. Looks to me like nothing more than political mud slinging and whining.

A terrorist (my definition: someone that has or is planning to commit an act of terror against the US or US citizen) deserves no rights IMO, even though they may be granted such I'll happily take them or see them taken away.

Do you really think the currrent US Government has ulterior motives and is out to take away the basic liberties of it's citizens? At least any more than is temporarily necessary to ensure our right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? If so then I am wasting my "breath".

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by AKIron

I read the initial post as well as yours. Looks to me like nothing more than political mud slinging and whining.

Parts of it looks that way to me as well.  But not all of it.

A terrorist (my definition: someone that has or is planning to commit an act of terror against the US or US citizen) deserves no rights IMO, even though they may be granted such I'll happily take them or see them taken away.

Yes, I agree that a terrorist can be a US citizen.  No I can not believe that they can (not neccarily shouldn't) have there rights taken away under your constitution.  But we would really need to have some knowledge about in US law to discuss this much further.

Do you really think the currrent US Government has ulterior motives and is out to take away the basic liberties of it's citizens? At least any more than is temporarily necessary to ensure our right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? If so then I am wasting my "breath".

No I do not.  I do know that in my country that a temporary "income tax" was started during war time back at the beginning of the last century.  And you know what, we are still paying it.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Thrawn


No I do not.  I do know that in my country that a temporary "income tax" was started during war time back at the beginning of the last century.  And you know what, we are still paying it.

Well, if we're going to talk about oppresive taxes then I have to admit that the US Government weighs much heavier on me than I would like.

[Hajo]

Most of the so called civil liberty injustices we won't individually have to be concerned with.  How many of you expect to be unlawfully searched or seized?  How many in this post are worried they won't have rights to legal representation?  Have any of you suffered yet?

Come on now........let's not get ridiculous.  You're fretting over something that probably wont' remotely effect you.

Now...if you want some effect....during WW2 in the US daily staples such as meat , sugar, and dairy products were hard to obtain.   I don't remember anyone whining about that.  If you owned an automobile good luck getting fuel, and getting tires for that automobile was out of the question.  

Methinks the greatest generation might just have spawned the most sniveling, whining, generation.....sheeeeeesh

[whgates3]

Nazis considered allied bomber crew in WWII to be terrorists - same went for the heroic french resistance dudes.  the IRA was terrorist until they became part of the government - same w/ the PLO...so i guess terrorist is a civlian combatant on the other side

[Dowding (Work)]

the IRA was terrorist until they became part of the government...

The IRA never has, is not and never will be allowed to enter into any form of government in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is an outlawed terrorist organisation and therefore you are comitting a crime just being affiliated with it.

Sinn Fein, the political wing of the Republican movement, has been allowed to stand for and enter into government; some of the members this party were active IRA members (Martin McGuinness for one).

Big difference (unless your name is Reverend Paisley).

[Masherbrum]

"Don't get me wrong. Terrorism is real. A definite evil that has to be defeated. My worry for the future, especially for my kid, is that when the smoke clears  the U.S government won't be something they have to fear as much or even more.


The smoke off of Noelle Bush's crack pipe.

Oed

Karaya2

[Manedew]

Hajo ; i guess you've never had your rights trampled on.... ever spent a night in jail for no reason and had to call a lawyer and freinds for help ?  I have ... under these laws I wouldn't have that right..... ever hear of the Maranda rights? "You have the right to remain silent", is about all thats left now. No right to trial no right to a lawyer.   THIS "WAR" IS AN EXCUSE FOR THEM.  Better not go protest in Washinton now.... remember you have the right to remain silent

go on thinking this is a 'WAR'... you can't stop all of terrorism; CAN'T ... if they want to they will find a way.  We may eradicate Al-Qu'aida... but they will never stop all terrorists...remember  OK City?

Stupid naivie people... wake up... when you need these rights they won't be there ... and I thought the 'greatest genaration' fought and sacrficed to keep such rights.  They never gave up these rights to stop Nazi spies... which could have killed or caused the death of ten times the number of americans at that time...
 
look who's fighting this thing anyway Camebridge MASS hummm they don't have any educated people there.....

[Kieran]

Of course you're right, Mane. Security is too tight in the country. Let's ease up a bit.

By the way, didja catch any TV yesterday?

[Toad]

There's a four year limitation on those laws.

Feel free to worry yourself sick that in four years your Congress.... which passed the laws.... (that would be the Congress we collectively elected to represent us) will have to vote to extend them, end them or modify them.

This November of 2002 you have the chance to change the structure and political outlook of the Congress. I suggest you ask pointed questions of those you intend to vote for concerning these laws.

You will get another such chance in November of 2004.

Don't waste these chances....... that is, if you are truly concerned.

It's always far easier to b*tch than work for change, isn't it?

Now, if these laws stay longer than needed, I'll be happy to be a grunt in the Second American Revolution. We'll win too... because IMO the military in this country probably has a better understanding of and devotion to the Constitution & the Bill of Rights than the politicos do. It'll be the military and the common man against the politicos.. should last about 15 minutes after we go to Congress to throw the rascals out.

Then we can start over where we left off and elect new scoundrels, scoundrels more in tune with robbing us of our paychecks than of our liberty.

It'll be just like the "good ole days" which are .. well, right around now.

[Masherbrum]

Oedipus,

I did the same voted Independent in 92 & 1996 (Perot both times).  I voted Independant on EVERYTHING except Bush.  SOLELY, because I own guns and wanted to try and protect that right.

I agree, the two party is a pathetic dog and pony show for Exxon, and other lucrative donations to try and guarantee kickbacks.

Oedipus

Karaya2

[whgates3]

i have yet to come accross a ballot that does not leave wondering if i should write in myself or Bill the Cat, or if the ballot might actually server a decent purpose in the bathroom