9/11 Opinions of todays youth

[Dowding (Work)]

Take away my anger and we are saying the same thing.

No we are not. While we agree that the ROE were impossible, you maintain that the UN forces were 'cowardly rutabagas'. I still maintain they had their hands tied and their courage was unquestionable.

I'm not au fait with the exact orders the UN forces were given, but the report criticizing the Dutch contingent (Dutchbat) had this to say:

"Dutchbat was dispatched

-- on a mission with a very unclear mandate;

-- to a zone described as a 'safe area' although there was no clear definition of what that meant;

-- to keep the peace where there was no peace;

-- without obtaining in-depth information from the Canadian predecessors in the enclave;

-- without adequate training for this specific task in those specific circumstances;

-- virtually without military and political intelligence work to gauge the political and military intentions of the warring parties;

-- with misplaced confidence in the readiness to deploy air strikes if problems arose; and

-- without any clear strategy for leaving."

[Thrawn]

GRUNHERZ, I'm afraid I can't put up with your irrationality and hate anymore.  People honestly try to have reasonable discussions with you and you do nothing but spew worthless vitriol.  

Congradualations, you just joined a very small select group of people, buh-bye.

[-dead-]

The United States needs to do something about this threat to our soveriegnty NOW.

Must have missed something in the news - what threat to US sovreignty? Sure you had a huge terrorist attack - but no threat to your sovreignty.

I say not argue about whether or not to go into Iraq... it should have been done a year ago. And as long as were there, lets "cleanse" the rest of the nations who oppose us. Dont bother with finding "evidence" of anti-American activity... anyone with half a brain knows who is behind this and who is not.

Mmm sounds like a new domino theory brewing... but who decides who is "anti-American" and who "opposes" you - what criteria do you use? I see you already don't need any evidence. Perhaps it's to be based on how close together the leader's eyes are? Or heck - no reason needed - just because the country's there, eh? And is it just the US that's allowed to persue this policy? Or can China "cleanse the rest of the nations who oppose them" too? [that should have half the BBS foaming at the mouth ]  How about Russia? Say - how about Iraq?  

This will happen again if measures are not taken swiftly. The response to 9/11/01 SHOULD have been blindingly swift and devastaing. These people need to be of the mindset that attacking America is insane... they knock over a few buildings? Why dont we go bomb a few diddlying cities. They bomb an embassy? Lets march into the guilty country.

That's the big problem with the "response" really - there IS NO guilty country. It's a multinational terror group. Most of the 9-11 crews were from Saudi Arabia - if that helps any. So technically, the US probably should have invaded Saudi Arabia. Furthermore, attempting to teach dead (in the case of the actual perpertrators) suicidal terrorists that attacking America is insane and will only result in them dying seems to me to be an enormous waste of time - they are suicide warriors, ergo they aren't afraid of dying. The best you can hope for in retaliation is moving them on, and going for a parity in innocent victim body counts (actually AFAIK the US slightly overstepped the mark in Afghanistan with 3,125 civilian deaths as the lowest estimate) as some sort of perverse "eye for an eye" feeling of revenge - on a country which, AFAIK none of the terrorists responsible actually came from. Although that fact is probably in the process of changing,  I fear, now that the US has killed all those innocent Afghans. As the mahatma put it: "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind."
And as for "They bomb an embassy? Lets march into the guilty country" - well lucky for all of us China doesn't feel that way.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Fishu


Oo... I really see hard evidence brought by the others!
I only see gang bang spirit here, not evidences to thing or another...

American double stantards I presume.

Although I'm not going to speak for what others have written here, I think I provided contentions with evidence. Perhaps you should read over my post again. Or, of course you could just play the Martyr if it makes you feel better.

-Sikboy

[Fishu]

Sikboy,

You're way out of content now.
Suddenly you think I'm supposed to play martyre....

Theres evidence back and forth, why do you think yours would be the right one?
Heck, I could write bunch of documents and claim those be the evidence or ask someone else to do it..  or just grab from some conspiracy theory site and use those as evidence, just as proof evidence.

You're just being ignorant.

[midnight Target]

Fishu,

1st you said there was no evidence presented.

Then Sikboy pointed out that you were wrong because evidence was presented and to quit being a martyr.

Followed by your rebuttal that you are not a martyr, and that evidence has been presented on both sides.

Am I following this correctly?

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Fishu
Sikboy,
Theres evidence back and forth, why do you think yours would be the right one?

Heck, I could write bunch of documents and claim those be the evidence or ask someone else to do it..  or just grab from some conspiracy theory site and use those as evidence, just as proof evidence.

You're just being ignorant.

I believe that my pov is the "right one" in general, because this is something that I have studied. Not in great detail mind you, but it is something that I've looked at in an academic environment before today. Specifically, I believe that my point of view is the "right one" because insterad of countering it at all, you withdrew from the discussion.

You could write a bunch of stuff and claim that it was true, at which point someone would ask you for verification. That's usually how I've seen a discussion go. If you want varification for any of my points with regard to the gulf war, please let me know and I will provide them.

Feel free to use conspiracy theory web sites for information and analysis. They are usually so fallicious that it's actually fun to see how many holes you can find. I believe that you treat these sites with the same contempt that I do however, so perhaps we should avoid that path.

How I'm being "ignorant" is beyond me. Unless there is a Finnish double standard of ingnorance.

-Sikboy

[Fishu]

Sikboy,

Actually you were the one who withdrew from the discussion in first place.

First of all, I don't know what the heck about you're wanting evidence.
You just hop in and whine about evidence...

Maybe I should ask Boroda... hes more into this kind of silly evidence discussion.
I've already had too much 'evidence' play with americans at the forums.

Americans are actually only ones who I have seen constantly requiring evidence at every corner..
When you bring some evidence, then usually next response is  they don't buy it and want more... of course after even that, they still have doubts of it and want more or find some other things.

I suppose that must be because of the lawyer culture, many acts like lawyer when given the opportunity.
Deny everything as long as you can, since even evidence can't be fool proof.


With years of experience on this matter...

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by -dead-

 they are suicide warriors

No, they are criminals.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Fishu
Actually you were the one who withdrew from the discussion in first place.

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.

First of all, I don't know what the heck about you're wanting evidence.
You just hop in and whine about evidence...

I'm simply trying to figure out if you have something to support your contention that we clearley had the opportunity to take out Saddam in 1991. That is the lone point of yours that I addressed.

Maybe I should ask Boroda... hes more into this kind of silly evidence discussion.

Maybe you should, Boroda and I have had some very good discussions on this board, and I respect his abilities.

I've already had too much 'evidence' play with americans at the forums.

Yes, it is preferable to say things without having and basis in fact.

I'm pretty sure that it's not a matter of being american any more than poor argumentation is a matter of being Finnish.

-Sikboy

[Fishu]

Sikboy,

During years of discussing in forums, I have come to the conclusion of the people demanding and arguing about evidence in the forums, are americans.

Just as much as 'poor argumentation' is matter of being Finnish matter.

Which I have noticed already long time ago;
In American forums argumentation is every day stuff
In Finnish forums I can't say I see much of argumentation wars and those few usually aren't long lasting nor that serious.

Of course I haven't made any big fact books of the matter, since it isn't something I'm interested to look at in professional manner.
It is just general observation over the years with half curiosity.

[Hajo]

Saur.....good post.  Once Upon a Time, and far away I was a college student also.  At that time...like many former and current college students we thought we just about knew it all....Hey! we're in College aren't we?  Doesn't that make us smarter?  LOL Then as you get older and actually experience life.......let's face it folks,  when you're in College most haven't had a steady job, provided for a family etc.  I realized AFTER I got out of College I knew nothing about what really transpires in the world of business and politics.  Just as in back to school with Rodney Dangerfield, College can only prepare you for the theoretical world.  The way it should be and the way it is are two separate entities.  Most College Students of this day weren't around for the Viet Nam War, Korean War, or World War II.  They see it on the Discovery Channel, or read about it in a book.  I wasn't around for WWII, so I got the story from my parents and grandparents, they lived it.  Experience has always been regarded as the best teacher.  I agree with that statement.  Certainly my college education helped me greatly, but after entering the job market experience was the great teacher, and by the way more valuable then my degree.  So there are similarities between the job market, and the real world that one experiences after graduating college.  College was valuable to say the least, but it didn't give anyone the tools to apply the knowledge that one has just acquired.  That comes from experience.  Look at job postings now.....4 years experience required.....along with the degree.

The same can be said about the view some of your college students spewed forth about why, and how the US was attacked on 9/11.  Does it really matter why?  No it doesn't....experience taught me that.  What's important is THAT the US was attacked on 9/11/01.  That's what counts.  What counts is that 3,000 people, all innocent died because of radical view of the Muslim Religion.  The Muslim religion doesn't teach Muslims to slam airplanes into buildings and kill innocent people.  The Muslim and Christian religions are very similar in the view that killing is not the answer.  There always has, and always will be someone, or a group of someones who will twist, bend, and alter the thinking of people to their point of view.  History has proven that.  And those most gullible are the misfortunate in life, and generally the uneducated.  Again, after all, isn't History experience?

So Saudr....take heart!  Nothing against College Students.  I was one LOL a long time ago.  Let's face it, generally College is the first time most students have been away from home for that length of time in their life.  I've been there, I know.  I also thought because I was attending and graduating College I knew more.  I did...about Metalurgy and Chemistry.  But I absolutely didn't really start to learn UNTIL I started experiencing life on my own.  Now I was responsible, not my parents.  I had to learn to survive in my field........and experience was and still is my greatest teacher.  When those in College graduate.......History and experience will teach them also.......about politics, about the job market, and more about people in general.  So.....those voices you heard spewing numbers and theory about how and why the US was attacked, were gotten some place else, they didn't formulate them, someone else did.  And let's face it....there is a reason they're still called students.  They're still learning...as am I.  My only edge is that I'm older.  And since I'm older experience has had the opportunity to teach me more.  I've already walked down the path that you and they are walking.  That doesn't make me wiser.........unless experience has taught me and I've learned the lessons that life has forced upon me.

Sorry for being so long winded

[Eaglecz]

Originally posted by Saurdaukar

I find myself angered because it seems to me that the "educated youth" (college students) of today are simply stupid.  

wow ... what a news ! ... you didnt note that before ??

[Eaglecz]

Originally posted by Saurdaukar

I have been arguing for years that this country has no nationalism or culture.  In a strange way, I believe that 9/11/01 helped to fix that.  People came together not as blacks, whites, chritians, jews, etc, but as AMERICANS!

goood.... so now americans have nationalism ... wtg hehe germans had some as well around 1939-1945 hehe..... go ahead muhehe