Author Topic: Will Aces High have a padlock view  (Read 4173 times)

Offline weazel

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1471
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 1999, 03:47:00 PM »
 
Quote
Ya know, guys like Weasel I run into in my entire life. Everytime they see me they think "He's retarded" or "He can't do this or that so why bother"

Go back and read my posts again,I believe you will see that I stated I can sympathize with people with disabilitys,and also something about 99% of people whining about this crutch. I didn`t include you in the that 99% and didn`t make any derogatory statement OR attack on people with disabilitys. I have worked with/supervised disabled people in the past and realize that if given the methods/tools to assist them in performing their work they are usually better workers than the average Joe-so don`t put your words in my mouth. However I don`t see how HTC could implement a padlock view for you without in effect giving the 99% of whiners w/o disabilitys what would ammount to a built-in cheat to hide their lack of ACM skills.

------------------
}]
JG-2 "Richthofen"
 http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/



Offline Fester'

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 336
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 1999, 04:22:00 PM »
>>However I don`t see how HTC could implement a padlock view for you without in effect giving the 99% of whiners w/o disabilitys what would ammount to a built-in cheat to hide their lack of ACM skills<<

The usefulness of a padlock view has already been discussed, and it has generally been decided that it would be more of a liability than an asset, especially in a multi-plane environment

So where does the cheating part come in?

Maybe you can enlighten us on this tremendous advantage the hordes of dweebs and the occasional disabled person will have over you?

And instead of an emotional tyrade, lets try to elevate this to an adult level.  

If you have a valid point I wouldnt mind hearing it.

Fester, out

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12320
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 1999, 04:32:00 PM »
Why i won't write padalock.

1. To be fair with the padaloc system any time the bogie flew behind anything the lock would have to break. That meens that if he simply crosses a canopy rail the lock would break. The inside plane detection lock break is fairly easy and not very cpu intensive. We also have the terrain to break the lock and all other objects in the terrain including clouds other planes and this is not a trival cpu matter but it could be worked out. So unlike all the other games that use padalock just a normal pull from an up view to a forward view will always pass a canopy rail and there for the lock would be constantly disengaging. Do to game design U will not auto reaquire a target once the lock is brocken. So what padalock would end up like is only a very marginaly usefull tool for people who havn't yet mastered the normal view system.

Now unlike players I have to way every thing in the time it takes to implement vs what it adds to the game. Quite simply writeing padalock would delay somthing else and in my view just isn't worth the time to write verses the benifit to the game.

Finaly this is not a new issue. Ive been hearing the exact same aguments over that last 5 years and it has almost always come down to people who have learned the view system have no desire for padlock and people who havn't yet mastered it wish there was one.

HiTech

Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 1999, 04:34:00 PM »
LOL;

Check this out.

************************

Guppy

No AI crutches for SA.
Get your OWN views.

Padlock views seem to be nothing more than a crutch to make boxed simm junkies who are too lazy to use their view system able to compete online.

I've been playing WarBirds for long time and never had any need for padlock view, so why would we possibly need one relaxed realism padlock here?
Seems like others doesn't have any problems either with that

I'm not trying to be a smarta*s but why are you guys so bent on getting "padlock view"?
Do you not have your hat switch configged right or what?

When <xxxxx starts loading baby seal buckshot into the guns> do you fly????

Learn your hat, get your own views. Period. Next you "padlock" people will be asking for dot commands to do auto-chandelles, split-Ses, loops, and hammerheads.

The question remains then, why build in a crutch that soon most pilots would find unnecessary and even undesireable in a very short time anyway?

Or "computer" because you want the computer to do the looking for you.

WE DON`T NEED NO STEENKING PADLOCK!

. Personally I think 99% of the people requesting this crap idea ARE LOOKING FOR THEIR CRUTCH they became used to in less worthy sims,jeez some of you are really lame.

Similarly, the idea of padlock view is silly

So, it's a crutch that develops poor habits, has limited usefulness and poses programming challenges. Using it is as ludicrous as claiming that Columbus went out to prove the world was spherical.

I`m not trying to be cool,far from it-I`m a hothead and it just pisses me off to see the continual whining for this crutch. You whiners need to learn to anticipate angles/position of the enemy,counter it in a correct manner and then you wont need this crap because the enemy will be in your gunsite!

Minatour don't generalize it is the indication of a weak mind unable to make specific,incisive arguments.

I don`t see how HTC could implement a padlock view for you without in effect giving the 99% of whiners w/o disabilitys what would ammount to a built-in cheat to hide their lack of ACM skills.

*****************************

The above are selected quotes from posts in this thread.  Flame me for my choices...

Mino


[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-13-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-13-1999).]

Offline jmccaul

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 1999, 04:39:00 PM »
Minatour:

To quote myself
my tongue is in my cheek....but only just
end quote

Read into this i'm just stirring trouble  

Offline weazel

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1471
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 1999, 04:42:00 PM »
Fester,go back and re-read Dingers post,he stated the reasons quite well. If you want it in my words here it is,if I learn to perform a manuever that will give me an advantage or allow me to kill or escape being killed it shouldn`t be negated by the computer of my enemy being able to track me through the manuever. That amounts to a "cheat" in my eyes simply because this about pilot vs pilot-not PC vs PC. I`ve spent a lot of time and money to aquire my limited skills in flight sims and don`t want to see it lost due to this crutch.

------------------
}]
JG-2 "Richthofen"
 http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/




[This message has been edited by weazel (edited 11-13-1999).]

Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 1999, 04:50:00 PM »
Hitech;

Thanks, I can once again breath  

Pretty much knew this all along and stated it early in the post.

Thanks for your time in a your busy schedule.

Mino

-kier-

  • Guest
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 1999, 05:34:00 PM »
Minotaur-

Assembling a montage of quotes out of context to validate your point isn't being fair to the authors. I never once stated in the all-encompassing strokes you attributed to me (by association) the belief that all pilots prefer not to have padlock and that all that do are cheaters, dweebs, inferior, etc. I tried to stand back and write what my experience with sims has been, then added how I felt about the issue. I never intended to add to the flames you might be feeling, but if you really want discourse, you must be ready to accept a different view. I felt mine was delivered respectfully.

I repeat, (and ironically, it is more-or-less what HiTech just posted) I don't care whether or not we have padlock, but I wouldn't want it at the expense of anything else.

Offline wolf37

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 1999, 06:05:00 PM »
we are taking about WWII planes right, keep your eyes open and look around a lot, if not, you will be shot down.

Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 1999, 06:09:00 PM »
-kier-

My apologies, I honestly just thought that the those quotes were funny.

Your post had to do with "crutch".  This seems to be the operating lever (word) for this bipolarized tripod.

Hitech has stated his position, you have stated yours and me well, I have overstated mine.....

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-13-1999).]

Offline Curly

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 1999, 06:38:00 PM »


 "...I have overstated mine..."

 <nods>

 Flatulance.

MG

  • Guest
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 1999, 11:36:00 PM »
Just browsing around in here (mac). And want to reply to this with my pocketchange.

If you are in desire of padlocks, then run, don't walk to your padlock view games.

Aces High and pre-2.7 Warbirds was written by Hitech for realism towards acm in mind. Such things as "otto" have been implimented because there could be a lack of positions on the plane filled by "real" pilots. Most serious acm simmers don't like it, but put up with it because of this obvious shortcoming.

I am a serious flight'simmer and as with most and if not all of them, padlock views are out. O-U-T out! As soon as any sim goes with a padlock or external view, then it throws immerision right out the door.

There's two kind of flight simmers out there, one being the one that likes to watch the airplanes fly, and one that likes to fly them.

Padlock view is not realistic for these reasons:

In reality, when your eye moves off to look at another external cue as to what your planes situation is in, taking your eye off the target, then coming back to the target, your eye DOES NOT attain it instantly. Your eye will wander a split second before the acquire, the time and distance of acquisition will vary according to how well the pilots logical thinking interpolates where the object will be. If the object of focus is moving too fast, he probably will never acquire focus on it again, but seeing it as a blur in peripheral vision as it zips by. And there are times when he just plain loses it. But with Padlock, this is never a problem.

Got it? good.

With padlock, you attain instantly, center of attention, smack dab in the middle of your screen. No need to look in the slightest. In real life, you have to look.

Pro-padlockers that it would be more real vision-like, moving the head on a swivel so to speak, because he doesn't have to press keys to change views, that the eye follows a target in the center of his focus.
Well, my argument to that is thats wrong. And my previous argument is explains a lot why it is wrong. But also I want to add that the main point of that being wrong is this, and here for example minotaur he states:

"When I look at something, I look right at it. I turn my head and move both my eyeballs. Whatever it is, it is smack dab in the middle of my vision. I don't look at half of it or turn my head and strain my eyes so that it is the left quarter of my vision."

When do you look at half of it?
When looking at your monitor, do you stare at the center of the screen so that the target is in left quarter? Your monitor is your field of vision, like it or not, this isn't the dream room in one of Ray Bradbury's stories where the lions eat the children. No this is the year 1999, and we have a periscope in our virtual reality, it being your monitor, no?

Okay, so we have to shift this 'periscope' to view this reality. The target object is at the place on your monitor where this FOV is occupying, always the same relative to your POV. So if the target is, say, 5 inches above, and 2 inches left of a given cue in your field of view, such as a gunsight or headrest, then your eyes, as in reality, will focus, on the object, NOT the gunsight or center of the headrest, goofy.

Why is that different from reality? You act as if it is. Your eyeballs shift to the object on your screen. Just because its in the left quadrant of your screen doesn't mean your eyes don't look directly at it.

The problem with padlock is the fact that the computer is doing the headturning for you. Like it or not, serious flight simmers in the course to find better immersion, prefer to keep as many computer-aided aspects to a minimum. Having the computer track a target is computerized acm. Get that? COMPUTERIZED ACM! That may be possible in computerized planes that we have now in this day and age, so maybe that is why you flew all the Falcons. Because you like the computerized stuff. We are talking WWII, where the Enigma was state of the art computer. And it didn't have a monitor.

Believe me, the computer can track a target much better than a human in a real plane can track a target. Snap views, or even pan views (which is unrealistic because of the speed of the pans, and another subject),  are the rawest and most basic way to view your surroundings. That is what the serious ACM simmer wants. The rawest, simplest way to view his surroundings.

If you want computerized tracking, go play Falcon. Leave us propellor heads with our basic flying machines.

------------------
MG
Major
Rogue Gryffons

Offline -lynx-

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 340
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 1999, 12:13:00 AM »
Minotaur: "I believe pilots glance at this target while flying their intricate manuvers, glancing at cockpit intruments, the horizon and many other cues and then re-acquiring their target almost instantly to locate its position and its relation to their own position. This re-acquiring process is based on expected location in relation to last visual contact. The human brain is very good at this sort of thing."

You are sooooo wrong here pal   You're going downwind to land watching another Cessna on final. He's white, it's a sunny day and he's barely half a mile from you. You "snap" your view to check the airspace around you - "snap" back to monitor the lander and he's not there!!! It takes quite a few moments to "re-acquire" a plane even if you know that "expected location in relation to last visual contact"...

------------------
-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF

[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 11-15-1999).]

Offline Laika

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 1999, 07:30:00 AM »
Padlock Bollocks !!

SA is all you need

laika-

Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 1999, 11:12:00 PM »
MG;
Lynx;

<Sigh>

Sounds like you SUPPORT my idea of computer tunnel vision and the use of Padlock.  Padlock being a "Human Vison Simulator".  Supporting my ideas, only from the opposite perspective"

There is simply no way to completely and  acurately descibe things with words that happen in real life.  You can nitpick forever anything that uses words to describe something that occurs in real life.

I was hoping to get some concepts across.  Please forgive any attempts up to this piont that I have made, it was not my intension to CHANGE your thinking.  I only wished to HAVE you think about it from another perpective.

This is the purpose of a "Forum", gather new ideas?

Consider this Example:

Snap view right  --> The con is on the left part of my screen (as displayed on my   computer monitor - con is in front of me on the right side) --> As I (simulatedly) move so does the con, our aspect is 180 degrees -->  The con moves to the center of my screen --> Then the con moves to the RIGHT QUARTER OF MY SCREEN  --> Then the con moves off the right side of my screen

This SIMULATES that I have only moved my head 90 degrees and that I have stuck toothpits in both eyes.  My eyes have remained locked in my head and have not moved.  This IMO is UNREALISTIC, but it is the best that THIS FLIGHT SIM WILL DO AT THE TIME.  

Pan View is too difficult to use in combat, using the keyboard.  Pan View needs a new technology to be REALISTICALLY used.

Tell you what, you guys are pilots?
 
Show me a pilot who can hold is head to look at a 45 degree angle backwards, then snap their head forward, then snap back to the 45 degree angle, then spin it around to check six, while pulling 5.5g's.  
Show me a pilot one who can look over both shoulders, crank their head around and check six, then snap their head forward again, pulling -2.5g's.  
Show me a pilot who can snap his head in any position they want, as quickly as they want, no matter how fast or abruptly the rest of pilot's body is moving the oppostite direction.  
I'll show you a pilot sitting at a computer with rice in his shoes married to some faint idea of how it really should be.  

Last I heard, eyeballs have less mass than brain caves.  I honestly don't know, did WW2 planes have G meters?

I never once said there was ANYTHING wrong with the current view system. I use it effectively, and find it very adequate.  It uses the same View System used in the 10+ year old simulation AW.  I did not change any of my joystick view macros to play AW, WB or AH.  THEY WERE ALL THE SAME.

I made no reference to any "SO CALLED" Hardcore Simmers opinion about wether their toejam stinks or wether it does not.

<nods>

Flatulance

Roses!  Now I feel better.      

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-16-1999).]