P-47 vs P-51 in WWII

[fdiron]

The P47 had a drop-tank called a 'paper' drop tank that supposedly leaked horribly.  It wasnt until the aluminum drop tanks showed up that the P47 had any range at all.

[palef]

You guys are all assuming that the Air War was won in the air.

The contribution that the P47 made to the destruction of Germany's logistics chain is incalculable. From late '44 when P47 units started moving to forward European bases, it started to become impossible for the Germans to move anything on the ground during daylight hours.

Groundpounding isn't glamourous, so the methods and effects are no where near as documented as air-to-air combat.

My point is, isn't it better to stop an aircraft from taking off to attack the bombers, rather than have to maybe knock it down before it gets there or possibly after it's already done it's job?
Isn't it better to shoot up the supply train or truck convoy carrying ammunition for AAA of all calibres than let the guns fire at bomber aircraft?

That is the effect the P47 had on the European airwar. It was MUCH tougher than the Typhoon, and arguably had better success in the Ground Attack role. There were also a lot more P47s than Typhoons on the job.

palef

[F4UDOA]

10,000 Kills?????

Please tell me someone has documents to back this up.

[Daff]

"The P47 had a drop-tank called a 'paper' drop tank that supposedly leaked horribly. It wasnt until the aluminum drop tanks showed up that the P47 had any range at all."

Erhh..leakage had nothing to do with it; The papertanks (British made) were only 75 or 90 gallon (Cant remember which), but the main difference between the US 150 gallon tanks was that the British tanks were available!.
 Blame US logistics and praise the British for at least providing 1/2 hours extra cover to the bombers, through their 'leaky' drop tanks.

Daff

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by fdiron
The P47 had a drop-tank called a 'paper' drop tank that supposedly leaked horribly.  It wasnt until the aluminum drop tanks showed up that the P47 had any range at all.

As far as I can remember, that is completely incorrect. The problem with the P-47 and drop tanks was that they had difficulty getting them pressurized, and without the necessary pressure, they could not getthe fuel back out of the tanks and into the fuel system, rendering the tanks useless. All the planes used the "paper" tanks, they were cheaper and easier to manufacture. The problem was that if you had to abort, they would almost always burst when you tried to land, creating a hazardous condition, so even if you only flew for ten minutes, you had to jettison two nearly full 128 gallon drop tanks, wasting all of that precious fuel.

[Gorf]

Your ALL WRONG!   The P-39 Airacobra WON THE WAR!!  
(packing up belongins and running with a Histeracle laugh)

Just kidding..
My input on this topic, The P47 was and is the most rugged and durable aircraft of the ETO.  That HUGE Radial engine in the front saved a lot of lives.  I think the P47 had one of the greatest impacts to the war and yes the P51 got all the Glory. For the US.  Kind of view the P47/P51 contraversy like the Battle of Britian.  The Spitfire got all the Glory and the Hurricane did all the work.

I am not saying the P51 was a bad plane.. it was a great plane but it was not the greatest plane of WWII nor was anyother plane of WWII, they all made major contributions to the war and to add to that it wasnt all the plane.. it was the pilot.  

To side with the P47 a little bit, one may wonder why the 56th fought so hard to keep their beloved P47 because the were the most familier with it, the knew its strengths and weakness, and they knew that out of all the Planes in the US arsenal, the jug with its radial engine gave them the best chances of making it home.  The radial was far superior to the inline for ruggedness.  

I would have to say the only Inline fighter that came close to survivablity was the P38--its dual inlines gave them a backup if one was hit.

As for the P-38, Captain Virgil Hilts had a good point.  The P47 would of been GREAT performer in the Mediteranian theatre if it was sent in numbers alongside the P38 and it would of been interesting if that did happen.  The P38 was great plane also, I don't know how many stories I have read that the P38 brought the pilot home save do its twin engine concept.  I think that is part of the reason why the US Navy made the F7F Tigercat a twing.. what made the F7F great is not only was it a twin but it was a radial also...another topic for another day.

For groundpounding the P47 was the alltime champ with the P38 in second.  WOuld place the Typhoon and tempest next and the 51 towards the end.

As for dogfighting for the US anyway, during the early days of the war the P47 was the workhorse and at the top .  Later on with the P51 beeing the lead but the later P47D models, P47 M and N stayed on the P51 heals.  THe Late year P38s were an amazing plane in itself.

OVerall they all played a very important role and they were all great in their own way.  BUT.. not beeing biased.(snicker),. for the time it existed.. the P47 was the greatest aircraft when it comes down to the math and its accomplishments.

Cheers

Gorf
56th Fighter Group

[Guppy]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
10,000 Kills?????

Please tell me someone has documents to back this up.

The most commonly encountered figures seem to be 4 950 credited aerial victories and 4 131 "ground kills" in the ETO, totalling 9 081.

[Daff]

". The problem with the P-47 and drop tanks was that they had difficulty getting them pressurized"

That was with the 200 gallon ferry tanks, as they weren't designed for flying high altitude.
They (The 56th FG) also had problems jettisoning them, so they had a full tank they couldnt get rid and couldnt use the fuel from.

Daff

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Daff
". The problem with the P-47 and drop tanks was that they had difficulty getting them pressurized"

That was with the 200 gallon ferry tanks, as they weren't designed for flying high altitude.
They (The 56th FG) also had problems jettisoning them, so they had a full tank they couldnt get rid and couldnt use the fuel from.

Daff

Best I can remember, the problems also applied to the 108 and 128 gallon drop tanks on the P-47. The 8th AF didn't even bother to attempt to solve the rpoblems or acquire an adequate supply of drop tanks until it was more than apparent that the bombers couldn't do the job without escort. So, when they finally did get the drop tanks, they still had to iron out the problems that should have been fixed long before they were desperately in need of those tanks.

The plain fact is the command staff of the 8th were just plain incompetent. The 5th AF was able to make drop tanks work on all their planes, even the P-47. They also had the foresight to do it before it was desperately needed. The 5th, the 9th and the 15th were all able to make drop tanks and even the P-38 work, and work well, against all enemies, in all situations, while the 8th, despite having choice and priority, couldn't make the drop tanks work in a timely manner, never really got the P-38 to work nearly as well as anyone else, and needed more fighters, more fuel ,and more pilots to achieve the same results as the other groups.

[BUG_EAF322]

The most commonly encountered figures seem to be 4 950 credited aerial victories and 4 131 "ground kills" in the ETO, totalling 9 081.

Those ground kills didn't count in the PTO where the lightning was excellent as fighter

[fdiron]

What do you mean ground kills dont count?  There were airfield strikes all the time in the Pacific.  In fact, I have hundreds of pictures taken from U.S. planes that show Japanese aircraft being strafed on the ground.

[BUG_EAF322]

but they didn't count as air victory

[-ammo-]

56fg had over 1000 kills alone in the jug. The 4th FG boasted over 1000 kills as well, but alot of them were in the P-47.

I think if we were to find some source documents, I believe we would find that the P-51 did not surpass the jugs total number of kills in the ETO.

[Mino]

Didn't the acronym JABO, come from the Germans describing P-47 ground attacks?

[fdiron]

Ok, I found some VERY interesting data on the P47:

546,000 combat sorties with a combat loss rate of only 0.7 percent.
132,000 tons of bombs dropped
135 million rounds of 50 cal. fired
1-1/2 million hours of combat
20 million gal of fuel consumed
11,878 Enemy planes destroyed; 1/2 in the air; 1/2 on the ground
160,000 military vehicles destroyed
9,000 enemy locomotives destroyed
More victories than any other American aircraft in W.W.II

From: http://www.p47millville.org/history_p-47_thunderbolt.html  

The P47 may have 'broke the back of the Luftwaffe', but the Luftwaffe was demolishing U.S. bomber groups and bomber crews at the same time.