Author Topic: P-47 vs P-51 in WWII  (Read 3731 times)

Offline senna

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« on: September 15, 2002, 02:53:49 AM »
Just was wondering what you guys think. Theres some posts recently about the P-51 so I thought this post up. Do you think the ruggedness of the P-47s made the more important difference in the AirWar over Europe or do you feel the Mustangs and their long range capability really made the difference ?

Offline Karnak

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2002, 03:05:38 AM »
I think there are several USAAF and RAF aircraft that are essentially interchangeable with the P-47.

I know of no USAAF or RAF fighter that could do the job of the P-51 (though there were some US and UK trials of fueled up Spitfires that might have done so had the Merlin P-51 not become available).

Based on that I'd say that the P-51 made more of a difference as it was the only fighter able to do so.

The job the P-47s were doing were also being done by Typhoons, P-38s, Spitfires, Mosquitoes, and yes, P-51s at the same time.  It was a cooperative effort.  Most of the fighters (all?) had a higher loss rate doing that job than did the P-47, but they could still do it.
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Offline senna

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2002, 03:33:02 AM »
Hum, thats sorta what I was thinking also but I think the loss rate of the P-51 would have been much higher if it not for the success of the jug and its own combat record.

Offline Monk

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2002, 06:29:06 AM »
If you stick to the P47 and P51, I think the P47 "cleared the way" for the P51.  Or, you could say did the "dirty work".

Offline DmdBT

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2002, 06:42:54 AM »
I sort of remember a quote from the 8th AF commander or someone of close status basically to the effect that "If it can be said that the P38 struck the Luftwaffe at its innards and the P51 delivered the cou-de-grace(oh  sp!), then it was the P47 that broke its back."

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Offline -ammo-

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2002, 06:58:55 AM »
You can look at it this way.  The USAAF met a very battle-hardened, disciplined, and skilled LW in 1943. They themselves were getting what they needed to know in small part from the experienced RAF, and largely from combat  new to them.  Their ride was the P-47. The early 8 AF FG's beat the LW in the P-47. The Pony came along in large numbers in mid-early 44 and gave the 8AF the range needed to escort their bombers.  They fought  a good LW as well, but nothing like the P-47 equiped groups faced in mid-late 43.  The P-47 was then relagated to Air to ground duty but they still met the LW in the air on occasion.  

To answer the question senna posed.... I believe Bob Johnson would agree that the P-47's ruggedness did:).  However, the difference really was the determination of the early USAAF group commanders, namely Hub Zemke, that took the P-47, his pilots, and learned how to exploit the LW's weaknesses and his own AC's strengths. Thats what beat the LW.  Attrition soon set in with the LW. They just couldnt keep up with the losses they took.
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Offline funkedup

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2002, 07:19:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
I think there are several USAAF and RAF aircraft that are essentially interchangeable with the P-47.

I know of no USAAF or RAF fighter that could do the job of the P-51 (though there were some US and UK trials of fueled up Spitfires that might have done so had the Merlin P-51 not become available).

Based on that I'd say that the P-51 made more of a difference as it was the only fighter able to do so.

The job the P-47s were doing were also being done by Typhoons, P-38s, Spitfires, Mosquitoes, and yes, P-51s at the same time.  It was a cooperative effort.  Most of the fighters (all?) had a higher loss rate doing that job than did the P-47, but they could still do it.


I think you might be forgetting that the P-47 beat the heck out of the Jagdwaffe in the escort role, tore them up real good.  P-51 got all the publicity, but the majority of the escort sorties were flown by Jugs and the majority of the killing was done by Jugs.  They were the leaders in the slaughter of the Jagdwaffe in the West during 1943 and 1944.

Typhoons didn't have the high altitude performance to do that job.

Spitfires didn't have the range or speed.

Mosquitos didn't have the maneuverability or speed.

P-38 is the only one that comes close, but if you consider reliability and cost (including maintenance), the Jug was far superior.

Merlin Mustangs did the escort job better, but by the time those were in service in large numbers, Jugs had already established dominance.  They were already clobbering the Hun.  The Merlin Mustangs just let them do it a little further East.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2002, 07:23:41 AM by funkedup »

Offline Guppy

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2002, 07:58:05 AM »
When the subject of the P-47 in the ETO comes up, I always think of the daily mission summaries which read something like, "...the bombers were escorted by 40 P-38s, 40 P-51s and 300 P-47s."

The P-47 was a good fighter, but most importantly it was available in significant numbers at a time when neither the P-38 nor the P-51 were.

Offline fdiron

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2002, 09:47:08 AM »
Whats it matter if P47 clobbered LW fighters while escorting, only to have tens or hundreds of B17s shot down when the P47s ran low on fuel?

Offline Wotan

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2002, 09:53:20 AM »
From mid-1941 to mid-1944, JG 26 and JG 2 were the only Luftwaffe day fighter units defending France. For the first two of those years, JG 1 was the only day fighter unit defending the Reich.

Most Luftwaffe losses between mid-1941 and mid-1943 incurred on the Eastern Front. Starting in late 1943 the number of losses in the West increased sharply. Half of these losses were day fighters.

This is when the western allies escalated their bombing campaign.  At the end of 1943 and the beginning of 1944, the new P-51B's began arriving in England in force.  For the first few months of the year, the Mustangs were settling in and having their systems perfected. But by March, the Mustangs had decisively taken control.

The P-47 and Spitfire, neither of which had a very long range. The rule-of-thumb for fighter ranges was that they could go as far as Aachen, which was about 250 miles from their bases in England, before they had to turn around. Most of the bombers' targets were between 400 and 700 miles from England. This meant that bombers could only be escorted into northern France, and the very western fringe of Germany.

The P-51B had a 425 gallons internal gasoline tank capacity. Its engine used about half the gasoline of other American fighters. Its range was 1080 miles and could be extended to 2600 miles with drop-tanks.  The p51b was superior to all other allied aircraft at the time. .

Most important was the p51bs superiority over the German fighters, the most important of which were the FW-190 and the Me-109. The Mustang was 50 mph faster than the Germans up to 28,000 ft., beyond which it was much faster than the FW-190 and still substantially faster than the Me-109.

Before the beginning of 1944, the bombers had no escort to targets deep in german territory. The P-51 changed this. For example, on January 11, 1944, the Eighth Air Force launched its first deep penetration of Germany with P-51 coverage. The bombers' targets were the cities of Oschersleben and Halberstadt. There were only 49 Mustangs covering a force of around 220 bombers. The bombers suffered heavy casualties but  they were able to inflict substantial damage the factories.

The most significant thing about the battle was the performance of the P-51's. The bombers were attacking two different cities and  the Mustang force had to divide into two groups. The Luftwaffe came out in force to defend their factories. During the ensuing battle, the 49 P-51's shot down 15 enemy planes without suffering a single loss. Major Howard, the group's leader, was credited with four kills within minutes.  

Quote
Air superiority had been won not by bombing the enemy's factories into oblivion; instead, it was won by the long-range fighter, using the bomber formations as bait to entice the Luftwaffe to fight.


With the greater numbers of the P-51 , the German fighters that came up to attack the bombers quickly met their match.

Sturmbock unit losses increased dratically. They reached a point where 3 190s were lost to every 1 b17 they killed. And no it wasnt bomber gunners getting those kills. It was the escort fighters.

The p47 and p38 just didnt have the effect on the lw that the p51 did. You may have yourfavorite ac but the p51 as shown by any measure was the aircraft that took it to the lw.

The 38 btw the way was hardly a plane feared by the the lw. Its effect on the eto was minimal. Well behind that of the 51 the jug and the typhoon.

On Black Thursday (second schweinfurt raid) the bombers lost near 27% of its force to the lw.

Offline -ammo-

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2002, 10:32:12 AM »
Quote
The P-47 and Spitfire, neither of which had a very long range. The rule-of-thumb for fighter ranges was that they could go as far as Aachen, which was about 250 miles from their bases in England, before they had to turn around. Most of the bombers' targets were between 400 and 700 miles from England. This meant that bombers could only be escorted into northern France, and the very western fringe of Germany


wotan--

For the Bigweek campaign in the spring of 44, the USAAF sent over three times more the amount of P-47 airframes as they did either the pony or the lightening, combined. P-47's could go to Berlin at this point of the war.  Range was not as much of a problem as it was in October 43.  The pony was inherantly better for endurance however.  The P-47 was opted for ground support not because it was inferior to the P-51B, but because the P-51B couldn't handle the ground work as well.  Not only was it a fine escort fighter, but it was tough enough with its big PW radial to better handle the AAA and ground fire from ground support work.

Quote
This is when the western allies escalated their bombing campaign. At the end of 1943 and the beginning of 1944, the new P-51B's began arriving in England in force. For the first few months of the year, the Mustangs were settling in and having their systems perfected. But by March, the Mustangs had decisively taken control.


That's not true. The P-47 was still the mainstay escort fighter at this point in the war.  Was later on in 44 before the pony was operationalized in the FG's to the extent that it was the 8 AF's main ride.

The P-47 was a 430 MPH fighter at 25K. Much faster in 1943/early 1944 than the contemporary LW fighter.

BTW-- what unit was the highest scoring Allied unit in WW2, and what was their ride?  
    Destroyed more enemy aircraft than any other 8th AF fighter Group.
    Had more fighter aces than any other Fighter Group
    Top Scoring fighter aces Francis Gabreski, and Robert Johnson flew with the 56th Fighter Group
    First USAAF group to fly P-47
    Only 8AF Group to fly P-47 throughout the War


link for allied aces tallied kills http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_eto_aces.html#top
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Offline Wotan

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2002, 11:22:26 AM »

Offline BUG_EAF322

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2002, 12:44:32 PM »
Sorry guys but the P38 brought the war to berlin.

At the time the LW was at full strength but the lightning could outturn any lw plane .

But there where some probs like a lw fighter could out dive and escape, wrong feul and pilots with not to much experience on the more advanced "skunkworks" lightning.

Also tactics had to be refined

At the time the mustang was there the Lw was weak and outnumbered and got basicly ganged by hordes of stangs.

No P47 ever reached berlin.

Yes who made USA top ace nr 1 and 2

it's the lightning in the hands of an experienced pilot it's the meanest thing the americans brought to the theatre.

Offline Wotan

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2002, 01:33:13 PM »
aces? The top Croatia Ace had more kills then the top American but Croatia had little impact on the war.

Yeah right bug the p38 took it to the lw in ww2  :rolleyes:

Offline BUG_EAF322

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P-47 vs P-51 in WWII
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2002, 01:49:56 PM »
Yes Luftwabble and i think u won this now
congrats

fact stays p38 was first fighter over berlin
take it .