Author Topic: Carrier Takeoffs (Huge Gripe) (Read 1279 times)

Samm · « **Reply #15 on:** September 20, 2002, 04:12:02 AM »

Hehe, try landing an F4U the way they tell you to in the real life flight operations film . Also at real life optimal cruise setting the AH f4u falls out of the sky at a rate of about 750fpm . I don't have any problems taking off from a cv in a fully loaded f4u1d. I have made an instructional film I will email to anyone who wants it .

MAC · « **Reply #16 on:** September 20, 2002, 07:15:00 AM »

I think the point F4UDOA is making is being missed........It is NOT impossible to take off. However, it should NOT be this hard to take off.

Also, if wind is not being modeled, I ask, WHY Not? Its modeled in other fields. You get crosswind, etc.

Thanks!

Puck · « **Reply #17 on:** September 20, 2002, 08:21:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MAC
I think the point F4UDOA is making is being missed........It is NOT impossible to take off. However, it should NOT be this hard to take off.

Also, if wind is not being modeled, I ask, WHY Not? Its modeled in other fields. You get crosswind, etc.

Thanks!

Hrm. You mean JUST like he said in the first post?

You mean pile-its in WWII didn't drop off the end of carriers and skim the water?

Anyone know the maximum TOW for F4Us on carriers?

F4UDOA · « **Reply #18 on:** September 20, 2002, 08:26:51 AM »

Heya MAC,

Thanks for saving me. The point is being missed here somewhat.

I can get it off the deck with 100% fuel bombs and rockets too. It's just not what I would describe as realism with the F4U FM.

BTW Puck I know about the requirement in the VMF-323 because I'm in the 323rd for about two years now LOL!!

Point being that I believe there is a drag problem mostly with the flaps and possible the pylons.

Flakbait,

I will definitly take you up on your offer to test. Just reply to this post and we can do it quickly.

AcId · « **Reply #19 on:** September 20, 2002, 08:32:14 AM »

IM AN IDIOT

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 20, 2002, 08:48:37 AM »

According to USN data, you don't need more than one notch of flaps in F4U-1D 100% fuel, and max ord loadout. Here is the procedure I folow which works without fail ( when I follow it properly)

right trim 6 degrees (6-8 cicks)
up trim 10 clicks
hold brake and allow engine to wind up.
full hrottle.

(I drop flaps when I see the port bow gun nest in forward angle view)

gentle back pressure on stick

raise gear immediately after deck, giving gentle back/right pressure to counter torque. You may even need to nose down slightly...but it's all on feeling...and dont let te stall horn scare you.

flakbait · « **Reply #21 on:** September 20, 2002, 09:23:44 AM »

Well, here goes George!

Lifted off from a carrier three times, all with a full load of everything (a deck hand wanted his locker back, but i gave 'im the finger and took it anyway) Anyhoo, here's what her loadout was...

2x 1,000lbs bombs
6x 50 caliber w/full ammo
8x 5in HVAR rockets
Full fuel load

Headwind was around 25-30 knots and all takeoffs were done with three notches flaps. Step for step here's what I did, and it was done the same way every time. On the second set of three takeoffs I tried different things to get it off the deck. Died once trying to haul it's over-loaded rear off the deck.

1: Drop three clicks of flaps and crank engine
2: Lock brakes and gun engine
3: Pop brakes and run down the deck
4: Drive it right off the deck and let it drop. Fly it through the stall until airspeed hit 130mph, then retract gear. At 150mph retract flaps.

Handling:

1: Aircraft mushed considerably after running out of deck space. Twice the wheels were nearly in the water and once it almost stalled off on the left wing. Side note: All models of F4U stalled on the right wing, NOT the left. Dunno if this is fixed or not in 1.10
2: Riding the stall horn was the only way to keep it from playing submarine despite having throttle firewalled.

3: On fourth takeoff, tried hauling it off the deck before the deck ended. Aircraft stalled off on the left wing (the wrong wing) and promptly pancaked into the forward-most 20mm gun.
4: Fifth takeoff. It worked, but barely. Aircraft pulled up just before the deck ran out and stalled completely. With copious right rudder input (gaming the game, really) it stayed in the air. Had to use WEP in order to stay airborne and not meet the fish. Though I hear Herb is one hell of a poker player, he breathes water, and I don't.
5: Last takeoff and this also worked. Used FULL flaps with WEP and got it off the deck just before running out of space. Though still riding the stall horn, it didn't last as long and was quite a bit more stable.

I'd film it, but there's no way for you guys to view 'em ("old film new version" bug strikes again!)

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"During the Battle of Britain the question 'fighter or fighter-bomber?'
had been decided once and for all: The fighter can only be used as a bomb carrier
with lasting effect when sufficient air superiority has been won." Adolph Galland

Samm · « **Reply #22 on:** September 20, 2002, 10:47:10 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by flakbait
All models of F4U stalled on the right wing, NOT the left. Dunno if this is fixed or not in 1.10

The film at Zenos says to drain the left wing tank first because that is the wing that drops .

whels · « **Reply #23 on:** September 20, 2002, 12:31:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Heya MAC,

Thanks for saving me. The point is being missed here somewhat.

I can get it off the deck with 100% fuel bombs and rockets too. It's just not what I would describe as realism with the F4U FM.

BTW Puck I know about the requirement in the VMF-323 because I'm in the 323rd for about two years now LOL!!

Point being that I believe there is a drag problem mostly with the flaps and possible the pylons.

Flakbait,

I will definitly take you up on your offer to test. Just reply to this post and we can do it quickly.

when HT finds a way to add the usual. 10 to 30mph head wind
that CVs have. then when u take off ull be rolling with more speed.

whels

MAC · « **Reply #24 on:** September 20, 2002, 01:05:24 PM »

Originally posted by flakbait
All models of F4U stalled on the right wing, NOT the left. Dunno if this is fixed or not in 1.10

The LEFT wing stalled first and almost without warning. That's why they added the small leading edge piece to the RIGHT wing so that they would both stall at about the same airspeed. This would cause the plane to drop level and not roll to its left and on its back.

It's really evident in early films of Corsair Pilots trying to land on CV's just above stall speed. You always see them roll sharply left and nosedive in the water.

F4UDOA · « **Reply #25 on:** September 20, 2002, 01:31:46 PM »

Yes it is very strange that the F4U stalls the wrong way. I said something a long time ago but it never got fixed. Another starnge thing is the fuel burn off in the F4U-1. Main tank then wing tanks. Doesn't make any sense to me but oh well.

Whels,

We do have a 25knot headwind here. Just look at the speedometer of the F4U when on the deck. It's at 40MPH just sitting still. Remeber a moving ship makes it's own wind.

BTW, I never roll back on the carrier. I don't know how anyone does it but I can't. Kill engine and everything but she won't roll back.

I think my auto trim might be hurting me but if anyone can deploy 5 notches of flap before moving and make it off the deck I am truely amazed.

AcId · « **Reply #26 on:** September 20, 2002, 01:32:25 PM »

On the F4U-1A they actualy bolted an extra piece of metal near the right wingtip to counter the stall of the left wing that was caused by prop-wash at low speeds.

If in the F4U-1 ALWAYS drain the Left Wing tank first, after that you can let AH automanage the remaining fuel. The game will leave some gas in the right wing until the main is just under 1/4. That leftover fuel in the Right wing with the Left wing dry, makes a HUGE difference, I've tested it and if you use this method the stall is more gradual and very manageable. I know, I fly the F4U-1 the most.

J_A_B · « **Reply #27 on:** September 20, 2002, 01:59:03 PM »

F4UDOA--

Taking off using full flaps deployed before moving is as easy if not easier than doing so with just 3 notches down. It can be done without too much trouble without needing to roll back OR use WEP. I did it 10 times in a row before posting this (5 times 3 notches, 5 times full flaps) and made it everytime. Without a wind at sea level (uncommon in reality, carriers usually headed into the wind to launch planes) you bob down a bit after leaving the end of the deck but can pull up with around 15 feet to spare.

DO NOT USE Auto-trim when taking off a fully-loaded F4U. I found it makes things tougher. Manually trim to full up elevator and some right rudder trim before you start moving. The reason AUTO-TRIM is killing you is it trims the rudder slightly to the left at takeoff speeds (the direction the F4U wants to stall); what you need is some RIGHT rudder trim. Sure enough, then I use AUTO-TRIM I die very consistently.

Also before you start moving, hold brakes and give the engine enough power to bring the RPM's up to max (3 clicks if you use the keyboard for throttle control), THEN release the brakes and firewall the throttle (WEP not necessary). If you fail to do this before releasing the brakes you will most likely crash. Also do not attempt to pull up until you leave the deck or you will stall.

Remember the F4U was known for killing inexperienced pilots. It is NOT an easy plane to learn and it's pretty unforgiving if you mess up. Once you have a routine down though, it's not especially difficult to get it off the deck.

Finally, to roll back if you want to, do the following after you spawn: start engine, give it a slight amount of throttle (about 2 clicks if you use keyboard for throttle)....with a hair of throttle, your plane will begin to coast back along the deck. If you ever have to take off with a tailwind, this is probably a necessary step.

J_A_B

F4UDOA · « **Reply #28 on:** September 20, 2002, 02:07:06 PM »

JAB,

Thanks for the Tip. I will try it ASAP.

However as long as the carrier is moving you will have a head wind. Just look at you speed while sitting still. It's 25Knots or about 40MPH.

J_A_B · « **Reply #29 on:** September 20, 2002, 02:17:13 PM »

I'm aware of the carrier moving headwind, but if you had another 15-20 MPH of additional wind it'd make a big difference

Of course in the MA it'd usually mean you'd die more because I never saw a carrier turn into the wind when we had sea-level wind.

J_A_B