Carrier Takeoffs (Huge Gripe)

[F4UDOA]

I was doing some jabo runs of the deck of a carrier yesterday when I was rudely reminded of the serious discrepincey in performance of the F4U-1D getting of the deck with a full load of in my case 50% fuel, 2K bombs and 8 rockets. Is it impossible to takeoff in this configuration, hardly, but it does take three hands and some good timing to do it. And frankly since 1.08 I don't know if you can take off with 100% full and full bombs and rockets.

Here is my case for a change.

I did the number crunching for the weight with 2 * 1K bombs and rockets with 100% fuel.

F4U-1D 100% fuel ammo= 12,175LBS.

2* 1000LBS bombs= 2,000LBS(duh)

8* 5"HVAR = 1,150LBS

Total weight= 15,325LBS


From the F4U-1 pilots manual

Mil power 54" MAP (No WEP!!)

Takeoff run in FT 30% flaps(3 notches) 15,000LBS

25Knot headwind =640FT!!!


I looked up our carrier and I am matching it with the Essex class. I believe that is the correct ship although I am not sure.

Length= 880FT.

(I should be airbourne before reaching the end of the deck!!)

This should be more than enough distance to get off the deck without sinking off the end of the ship, retracting the gear hitting flaps and Wep and fighting crashing into the water while typing as fast as I can.

What gives?

[MAC]

Amen F4UDOA!

I don't understand the HUGE discrepencies HiTech has when it comes to the Corsair.  I fly the Corsair EXCLUSIVELY and noticed a  HUGE difference with 1.08+

Before, you could take off CVs fully loaded and fueled 100% with a bit of backing up.  Now its almost impossible.

HiTech says he didn't change anything with the Corsair, but it handles like a slow pig since 1.08.

There definitely needs to be some revisiting of the modeling.  

BTW....GREAT website.  

[-ammo-]

good case f4udoa.

[Soulyss]

One question, the deck of an Essex class carrier you found it to be 880 feet.  Is that the total deck length? if so you'd need to find where the take off point is on the deck and subtract that out to find out the actual length of deckspace you have to take off in.

[J_A_B]

Is the carrier in AH actually 880 feet?  


That said, I can get a fully-loaded F4U-1D off the deck with minimal trouble.  Procedure:

1. Spawn.

2. Let plane roll back to rear end of flight deck (last set of arrester cables)

3.  Firewall the throttle (WEP)

4. As plane rolls down runway, deploy flaps.  Should be reaching full flaps just as plane goes off the front of the deck.

5.  Retract wheels, THEN flaps.  Remember to turn off WEP once airspeed hits 150.

If I do this I can take off every time unless the CV starts turning.  Yes that is with 100% fuel, 2 x 1000 lb bombs and 8 rockets.

J_A_B

[F4UDOA]

JAB,

I fly the F4U exlusively(off carriers anyway). I used to be able to get off the deck that way as well pre 1.08. It is different now trust me. It is a struggle with 50% fuel. I have been here since the Beta. It is harder now than pre 1.04.

Except here are the problems I have with it currently.

1. The takeoff power for the F4U is Mil power 54"MAP. No WEP, why should we need it here?

2. The distance in the pilots manual says 15,000LBS in 640ft with 30% flap 25Knot head wind. The carrier deck is 880ft long. That leaves more than enough room to get airborne without doing the chicken dance at my PC why taking off.

3. The use of flaps in the F4U still creates to much drag. This point is made by the fact that unless flaps are deployed slowly they will act more to prevent a short run takeoff than help it. If you watch flim of an F4U takeoff flaps are deployed before the run begins. In AH they have to be deployed last minute or else you cannot gain enough speed in time.

4. The data in the flight manual calls for 3 notches of flaps. More flap gives you a shorter run. 5 notches should be an even shorter takeoff run. If you try this with full flaps in AH from the start you will be in the drink faster than you can bail out.

My feeling is that the flaps are mismodeled and cause to much drag. Also since 1.08 the F4U FM is more sluggish for sure. I think Pyro added more drag to the external pylons and rocket stubs. Although I certainly cannot prove it because I don't have pre-1.08 executable laying around.

BTW, I haven't seen a single post from Pyro in months in any subect forum. Is he still around?

[J_A_B]

I can still take a fully-loaded F4U off a carrier without using full flaps or WEP or without rolling back signifigantly.  Process:

1.  Spawn

2.  Set full up elevator trim and some right rudder trim.

3.  Deploy flaps to 3 notches.

4.  Hold brakes and gradually increase throttle (to get RPM as much as possible.  Release brakes and max throttle when RPM maxes; you will roll back a hair when doing this but not a signifigant amount.

5.  Be very very gentle as plane goes off the end of the deck; you will be riding the stall buzzer and dip down a bit but you can keep it airborne every time after just a little practice.

If the takeoff distance for the Corsair in this configuration should be 640 feet, then you can see why there might be a problem.  The spawn point is well foreward of the end of the ship; maybe even slightly less than 640 feet is left for takeoff.  In any case, you have to be sure to make your takeoff utterly perfect or you will crash since this is an absolute minimum-distance takeoff (it's MUCH safer to let it roll back a  bit and take off with WEP).

J_A_B


File should be attached:

[gatso]

Can't remeber the last time I crashed a fully loaded Hog on take off... although I've not flown them a great deal the last couple of tours I did fly them a lot during late 1.09.  Yes it takes a bit of practise but what doesn't?

In fact I just tried it offline to make sure. Seems the same as I remember, ya get awful close to the horrible wet stuff but still make it off.

BTW how the hell do you 'back up' on a CV?  is ther actually enough room to taxi turn on the deck?  Whats the procedure?

Gatso

[MrLars]

I can TO from a carrier w/ a F4U-D fully fueled and 2k bombs with rocks no problem...I don't back up either.

Spawn and start engine

When you start to roll hit 5 notches of flaps and hit WEP also

Gear up asap and give a little right stick

Flaps in as soon as you can maintain level flight

I've used this procedure since carrier operations were available in AH.

If they've changed for you I'd first look at my control set-up, any changes in scaling or dampining could make things easier/harder...also a stick that's getting old may also cause problems.

Only when I get distracted do I have problems 'cause although it isn't difficult to do, any lateness in the timing of the procedures usualy results in a ditch.

[Puke]

I've seen B-25s in real life take off from a carrier more easily than an F4U in Aces High.  

[J_A_B]

Keep in mind that right now in the AH MA there is no wind at low altitudes.  If you set up offline a 15-knot headwind for the carrier group, it makes taking off quite a bit easier.

When my dad was sitting a troopship in Tokyo Bay just after the end of the war, there was little else to do but sit on the deck and watch planes take off from a carrier that was moored mext to the troopship (they weren't allowed to go ashore because of Typhoid he says).  Dad insists that a few times every day a plane would go off the deck into the water.  While that was from a non-moving carrier, it was also unloaded planes I'm sure since the war had ended.  

Guess what the AH flattops really need is a crane  

J_A_B

[BTOgb]

This is what i do.
Spawn let down flaps fully full throttle with WEP and take gear up ASAP then take control of my corsair because auto takeoff from carrier isnt too good. oh yea with 100% fuel 2 1000 LBS bombs 8 rockets. end up about 10ft from water lol

[Puck]

Taking off from the CV in a fully loaded (2k iron, 6 rocks, 100% fuel) F4U-1D is a squad requirement in VMF323, and they don't let you roll backwards first.

It's kind of exciting, but even I can do it most of the time (and I suck).

Here's my deal (no auto-takeoff or combat trim):

Set trim to climb
Start engine at idle
Set brakes
Run up engine to WEP
Release brakes just as the AC starts to roll anyway
As you clear the island start dropping flaps; I generally use two or three notches
Pull gear up the instant you clear the end of the deck
Pull back on the stick once you clear the deck, but not hard enough to snap-roll
Ride the stall horn.  You're going to get real low, but you should be able to stay out of the water
As you level off (real low) start bringing your flaps back up
Climb slowly until you get some airspeed
Kill any bish or rooks you see  

I'm not sure if the CV has headwind modeled.  I get the fealing it does, since at the con HT talked about "increasing the CV speed" if we couldn't get the 163s up off it.  

YMMV.  HTH.  HAND.

[flakbait]

F4U,

I've got a copy of 1.07 P4 kicking around the ol HDD. Just post what test procedure you'd like followed and we can prolly get this thing fixed.



-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb

[whgates3]

if you're having trouble getting off the deck in a loaded corsair, just use an F6F Hellcat instead - fully loaded takeoff is no problem & you have almost as much ordinance (2 rockets less) & a bit more ammo