A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)

[Naudet]

Ok in that thread there came a few things up about P38 beeing outnumbered at a factor of 4:1 to 20:1 in the ETO in 1943.

Now i just wonder were you got those impressive numbers from?

1st thing i'd like to know is how many P38s were ready in England in 1943?


I can't believe that in 1943 the number was anywere close to 4:1.

In 1943 the Reichsverteidigung was terribly weak, as far as i can remember the LW was only capable of bringing a max of 100-200 fighters to intercepty one raid.

The whole costline from Brest to Norway was defended if i remember right from just 3 Jagdgruppen (JG2,JG5,JG26,).

The Reichsverteidigung consited of JG1+JG11 for day-fighting (i don't count Nighfighters as opponents for P38s).

Also there were Staffeln of two other JGs (JG54+JG27) stationed in the Reichsverteidigung or the french coast. But i.e. III./JG54 it was exchanged with III./JG26, so one Staffel went to the west while one went to the east.

At best the LW could defend the whole airspace in the triangle Brest-Narvik-Munich with around 500 hundred dayfighters that were spread in a huge area.
To speak of a general 4:1 superiority in favour of the LW in air engagements is a little bit overestiminated i guess.

Usually the 8th AF did one big bomber raid per day in 1943 and that was escorted by the majority of its fighters.

So if 50 P38s escort 300 B17+B24 to the Ruhrgebiet in example they would face a maximum of 200 LW fighters at a time (Which was very very rare, around 60 attackers at a time would be normal), from which the majority had strick orders to attack bombers only and to avoid any combat with the escorts.

[BUG_EAF322]

yep the p38's where outnumbered  but they beated the crap out of the luftwabbles

amazing isn't it

[-ammo-]

I think there were only 2 operational fighter groups of P-38's in the fall of 1943 in England

[brady]

Well said Naudet.

[Naudet]

@bug: in your recent posts in multiple threads, you have showed such a great knowledge about WW2, based on a data base much greater than mine, that i have come to the conclusion, just to ignore your stupid inputs.
Especially as i am sure you will again post that stupid helmet pic.

@ammo: if there were two P38 fighter groups operational in the ETO at that time, how many planes did they have? Have to ask that cause i have no idea of USAAF fighter group size.

[Glasses]

There are 2 things that differ the overall strength of the LW in the west in numbers and how many they sent up in each mission. Relatively speaking the LW only sent up a small force to intercept the bomber missions against the Americans back when they were trying out sending buffs unnescorted it wasn't until mid-late 1943 when the the Bomber and Escort fighters started reaching extreme numbers did the LW transfer units form other fronts to suplement the small force in the west(JG26,JG2) and some units were created from other Gruppen. So the number of 60 against 8 is plainly put, false,in mid-late '43(when the P-38s started becoming common over Coninental Europe in October of the same year).  After that in late '43 numbers began reaching odds of 10-1 in favor of the Allies in the west ,not only that, they outnumbered the LW in all other fronts.

By March '44 odds were 20-1 and for the remainder it stayed pretty much at that or more.  Simply put the German Air Arm, got out produced and out numbered ,in some regards it also got out maneuvered and sabotaged by their own reluctant leaders in letting new innovative leadership take a much more important and active role in strategical descisions until it was too late.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Glasses
After that in late '43 numbers began reaching odds of 10-1 in favor of the Allies in the west ,not only that, they outnumbered the LW in all other fronts.

By March '44 odds were 20-1 and for the remainder it stayed pretty much at that or more.  Simply put the German Air Arm, got out produced and out numbered ,in some regards it also got out maneuvered and sabotaged by their own reluctant leaders in letting new innovative leadership take a much more important and active role in strategical descisions until it was too late.

Where in the world are you getting these numbers?

Re: P-38 groups.  There were two in 1943, the 20th and the 55th, and they didn't became operational at group strength until November and December.  As a practical matter, the 38s just were not a huge factor; the P-47 groups had been flying since late spring, 1943, and were the principal force that destroyed the cream of the Luftwaffe in the winter of 1943-44.  (8th AF fighter groups, if I recall correctly, were 48 planes at full strength, in three 16-plane squadrons).

Re: Why the Luftwaffe lost.  It might be a comfort to you to think that they were simply overwhelmed while they were being stabbed in the back, but that ain't the truth.  They died from their own arrogance.  They didn't take the 8th AF bomber effort seriously until too late, and then were playing catch-up while the Americans methodically slaughtered them.  Galland, Goering, Jeschonnek, whoever, never came up with a workable system of daytime fighter defense.  This is particularly odd given that the night fighter force did very well at organizing itself to concentrate on the Allied bomber raids.

- oldman

[Glasses]

D.L. Cadwell "JG26 TG of the LW"

It might comfort you Oldman to think that they were the arrogant little "Nazis" you and other propaghandist BS makes them out to be,which was not the fact. It indeed happen. Many of the LW Aces were being sent to engage an ever increasing enemy being extrictly ordered to engage the buffs(by the RLM) and ignoring the fighter escorts which made them easy pickings. You have  to remember many of those aircraft were  Destroyers not all were single engine fighters which at least were a bit more flexible.

They realized in the RLM too late by Mid '44 that attacking the Bombers was a waste of time, resources and pilots thus the campaing against the escorts began but it failed ,again numbers, and pilot skill played a large part in it.


But of course you can and won't never accept that like the truth. Many authors writing especially of USAAF in Europe take creative freedom in putting up pilot anecdotes as facts and war time reports from this side as the whole absolute truth. With the premise A:We won and B:because we  won  we won't have to apologize of any mistakes we make or have made. So any fables or fantasy stories can be added without it being factual, being admited an accepted even when things don't add up.

[DeadDuck]

Originally posted by Naudet
1st thing i'd like to know is how many P38s were ready in England in 1943?

Have total 38 deliveries at bottom cause its handy for reference.  I do know that 2 full groups of 38s were transfered from England to 12AF in Oct of 42.  Just before the start of POINTBLANK (May 43) the VIII had _TWO_ groups of P-38s and most of those were "H" models.  

Figure 200 P-38s in England during early 43.

DD

***************************************************
From Brodies book, by late 42 total number of 38s delivered by Lockheed:

210 - P-38E
 99  - P-38F-4-1 (photo recon)
126 - P38F
151 - P-38F-1-LO

From 42 to 05/43 another:

548 - P-38G

From 08/42 to 03/43:

140 - P-38F-5A

Plus available at various times and places prior t0 43:

143 - P-38 (322 I, II, B, F) (all probably upgraded if operational by 43)

***************************************************

[DeadDuck]

of 10-1 in favor of the Allies in the west ,not only that, they outnumbered the LW in all other fronts.

Wow!  The LW could only put up TWENTY fighters?  Ohh wait.  VIII could never get all its 38s operational so probably more like 15 total LW fighters. I had no idea the Germans were _THAT_ lame.  

DD

[Wotan]

Glasses is correct.

The lw put up between 60 and 80 fighters normally. the were divided into roll 190s would engage the bombers 109 would be close eascort for the 190 and another group would fly top cover.


Geschwader Stab 4 a/c
I. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
II. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
III. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
IV. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
Total of 164 a/c

Not all gruppen in a geschwader were at full strength or operating at the same time.

in France jg26 and jg 2 were it. In germany jg1 and later jg 11

jg 5 in norway was made from scratch from various units and were never at full strength.

at peak and on paper covering western Europe Norway and germany there were 820 planes mid war. Caldwell estimated 1300 or so but this is late war strength when geschwader numbers were :

Geschwader Stab 4 a/c
I. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
II. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
III. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
IV. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
Total of 276 a/c

[Charon]

I hear that the poles outnumbered the Lw as well, when they were agressivley waging war against the valiant german defenders.

Charon

[DeadDuck]

Originally posted by Wotan
Glasses is correct.

The lw put up between 60 and 80 fighters normally. the were divided into roll 190s would engage the bombers 109 would be close eascort for the 190 and another group would fly top cover.

So basically you are saying Glasses is INCORRECT right?  If the LW was putting up 60 planes (your low end) and the VIII got _ALL_ of its 38s up the number was 3:1


DD

[Wotan]

no because of those planes the majority attacked the bombes and avoided the allied escort. The gruppen of 109s providing top would have engaged the escorts they would have been from 12 to 36 a/c.

The lw avoided the allied fighters to engage the bombers. The lw rarely had attacks of more then 100 fighters and most of the lw in the west front was within range of the p47.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Glasses
D.L. Cadwell "JG26 TG of the LW"

I've got the book, and have been over it in some detail several times.  I'd appreciate it if you could point out to me where Caldwell says that the Luftwaffe was outnumbered "10-1 in late 1943" and 20-1 in March 44.

It might comfort you Oldman to think that they were the arrogant little "Nazis" you and other propaghandist BS makes them out to be,which was not the fact.

Very little about the Luftwaffe comforts me, Glasses.  Thinking about Guernica and Warsaw and Rotterdam and Coventry has never comforted me.  Listening to Nazi military men blame their failures on their dead leaders, in the same manner that you are blaming Goering for the loss of the air war over the Reich, has never comforted me.  There isn't a need for propaganda any more, because the young Aryan superpilots and their friends, so arrogant that they thought it was their right to try to conquer the world, got their parents and wives and kids bombed into the dirt and ashes of their quaint little cities and towns.  Even that does not comfort me.

But of course you can and won't never accept that like the truth. Many authors writing especially of USAAF in Europe take creative freedom in putting up pilot anecdotes as facts and war time reports from this side as the whole absolute truth. With the premise A:We won and B:because we  won  we won't have to apologize of any mistakes we make or have made. So any fables or fantasy stories can be added without it being factual, being admited an accepted even when things don't add up.

If you're into fables, you ought to look at the German fighter pilot kill claims.  That issue aside, it's enough to look at what happened in the air war to decide whose anecdotes are factual and whose are fantasy.

- oldman