Author Topic: A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)  (Read 1908 times)

Offline Seeker

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2002, 11:17:09 AM »
Am I correct in understanding that a point raised in this discussion is that the LW were misdirected to concentrate on the bombers raiding Germany instead of beating off the escorts? That the failure to down the escorts (regardless of the fate of the bombers) was the true cause of the LW decline?

Why is this so; when it is generally accepted (as far as I understand) that this precise same policy was followed to great succsess by the RAF in the Battle of Britain? Namely: to concentrate the attrition on the destructive arm of the enemy ( the bombers) and to actively avoid contact with the escort?

What then, is the essential difference between the Battle of Britain; and the battle of the Reich? Why would Dowdings proven strategy for success for Britain not work for Germany? Why is it assumed that Leigh Mallory's misguided "Bigwing" philosophy would work for the Riech?

Vics of three rolling over into a 100+ Heinkels - That's what I call numericalk disadvantage; and I don't really understand why better flyiers flying better machines should be less successfull with similar tactics; any one?

Offline Naudet

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2002, 12:27:22 PM »
No Seeker, the point in this discussion is that the allied escorts were not truly outnumbered in mid 1943 allthought there numbers looked pretty small on paper compared to the fighters the LW had to defend the German Reich on paper.

I could try to analyse why the LW lost both the BoB and the Battle of the Reich, but that would take a huge answer, that doesnt relate to this thread.

Offline Arlo

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2002, 12:28:20 PM »
and I don't really understand why better fliers flying better machines should be less successfull with similar tactics; any one?

(raises hand) Me! Meme!

Seeker: Yes, Arlo?

Arlo: Unterflaminaviatorz?

Offline Arlo

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2002, 12:31:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
allthought there numbers looked pretty small on paper


 Although .... their.

 I figured being a spelling nazi would fit right in here. :D

Offline Wotan

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2002, 01:56:44 PM »
thats what we have been telling you. The lw didnt attack the allied escorts they attacked the bombers, You cant grasp that and keep spewing the same non-sense.

If you ever called me nazi to my face I would jack your bellybutton up in second.

I am done with thread and done with folks like  you. You want hurl insults over a bbs like a punk.


All the units on the western front were engaged with the bombers not allied fighters. So you cant claim that the allied fighters are out numbered. The lw were attacking bomber formations greater then their fighter force. In situations like this a small group of escorts can be effective in disrupting an attack.

To say the allies were "outnumbered" based on total lw aircraft is as bs as you are. You dont seem to wanna account for how many allied planes of all types were in the air. The lw did go up to engage fighters.

If you look at total number of sorties the allies put up  into comparison to the lw you will see the lw was infact overwhelmed. Not by allied allied fighters but by the never ending waves of bombers.

You too fediddleing stupid to follow along well then fek you. I bet a dollar to a donut you would think twice before you pull that nazi  toejame to my face.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2002, 01:59:20 PM by Wotan »

Offline hazed-

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2002, 02:15:27 PM »
just some info here and a snippet from another book or two.

this is a layout of the numbers of 190s operationsal in the western front on 27th july 1942:


luftfliott3 (france,Belgium)

UNIT/TOTAL/SERVICEABLE

JG2:
stab  / 4 / 3
I gruppe / 36 / 29
II gruppe / 37 / 34
III gruppe / 39 / 31
10 Staffel / 15 / 11 (fighterbomber unit)

JG26
stab / 4 / 4
I gruppe / 38 / 28
II gruppe / 41 / 36
III gruppe / 36 /  33
10 Staffel / 15 / 12 (fighterbomber unit)
 
Aufklarungsgruppe 33
1. staffel / 1 / 0 (recon unit also operated 109's and ju88s)

Aufklarungsgruppe 123
1. Staffel  / 1 / 0 (recon unit also operated 110's and ju88s)

Luftflotte 5 (artic sector, eastern front)

JG 5
I gruppe / 35 / 28
IV Gruppe / 26 / 20

Luftwffenbefelshaber mitte (reich air defence)

JG 1
stab / 4 / 4
I gruppe / 37 / 34
IIgruppe / 38 / 28
III gruppe / 40 / 33
IV gruppe / 39 / 28

now im not trying to prove anyones case here but ive seen some numbers thrown around and they just dont really match up consistantly.Like ive said before if you read about most of the engagements one side or the other had an advantage in numbers.It wasnt always in LW or USAAF's favour and to make blanket statements about it is pretty rediculous.

heres the shortened list for the 17th may 1943 (fw190s again) only including those groups likely to defend against bombers.

Luftflotte 3(belgium, France)

JG2
stab / 4 / 4
Igruppe / 40 / 40
IIgruppe / 24 / 18
IIIgruppe / 40 / 37

JG26
stab / 4 / 4
Igruppe / 40 / 40
IIgruppe / 40 / 35

JG54
11. staffel / 16 / 9 (fighter bomber unit)

Schnellkampfgeschwader 10 (fastbomber)
stab / 6 / 6
Igruppe / 42 / 42
IIgruppe / 40 / 38
IIIgruppe / 30 / 23

Luftwaffenbefelshaber mitte (reich air defence)

JG1
stab / 3 / 1
Igruppe / 31 / 27 (unit also flew 109s)
IIgruppe / 39 / 31

JG11
Igruppe / 40 / 27


these are just 190s of course but it gives you a clear picture of the number of seviceable aircraft on these days.I cant tell you how many of these were up in a single engagement but i suspect 60 is a rather conservative estimate given that these numbers do not even include the 109s or 110s/me410 etc.the fighter bomber units are not likely to have been used against the bombers but i uncluded them anyway.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2002, 02:19:03 PM by hazed- »

Offline Arlo

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2002, 03:59:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan

If you ever called me nazi to my face I would jack your bellybutton up in second.

I am done with thread and done with folks like  you. You want hurl insults over a bbs like a punk.


I bet a dollar to a donut you would think twice before you pull that nazi toejame to my face.


 1 .... 2 .... 3 .... 4 .... 5 .... 6 .... 7 .... 8 .... 9 .... 10, he's out!

(Hold's up Woton's glove as Woton lays unconscious on the mat)

Howard: It's all over, folks. Woton had defeated Woton for the flyweight title of the Third Reich!

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Hey Wotan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2002, 06:23:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
thats what we have been telling you. The lw didnt attack the allied escorts they attacked the bombers, You cant grasp that and keep spewing the same non-sense.

If you ever called me nazi to my face I would jack your bellybutton up in second.

I am done with thread and done with folks like  you. You want hurl insults over a bbs like a punk.


All the units on the western front were engaged with the bombers not allied fighters. So you cant claim that the allied fighters are out numbered. The lw were attacking bomber formations greater then their fighter force. In situations like this a small group of escorts can be effective in disrupting an attack.

To say the allies were "outnumbered" based on total lw aircraft is as bs as you are. You dont seem to wanna account for how many allied planes of all types were in the air. The lw did go up to engage fighters.

If you look at total number of sorties the allies put up  into comparison to the lw you will see the lw was infact overwhelmed. Not by allied allied fighters but by the never ending waves of bombers.

You too fediddleing stupid to follow along well then fek you. I bet a dollar to a donut you would think twice before you pull that nazi  toejame to my face.


You know, if you don't want people insulting you, then don't insult people. Works about 99% of the time.

Oh, and threatening people over the Internet just isn't bright. It's a real arguement winner though. NOT!!!!

Now, you need to make up your mind. Right here in this post, you say "The lw didnt attack the allied escorts they attacked the bombers", and then you say "The lw did go up to engage fighters." MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

If there were escorts with the bombers, when the Luftwaffe attacked, what do you think the escorts did, watch? No, the escorts engaged. Therefore, the escorts were fighting the Luftwaffe fighters. By your own numbers, there were about 4 times as many Luftwaffe fighters as Allied escorts in late 43 to early 44. Now, are you saying the Luftwaffe turned tail and ran when faced with escorts? Are you saying the Luftwaffe ignored escorts and attacked bombers only, while the escorts were engaging the Luftwaffe? Or are you saying that the fact that bombers were present made the Luftwaffe outnumbered? Get your story straight big boy, and make sure it matches history and the numbers, or take your Luftwaffe to the hanger.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Naudet

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2002, 02:41:44 AM »
Quote
You know, if you don't want people insulting you, then don't insult people. Works about 99% of the time.


LMAO seems not to work for me, i have not insulted anyone and beeing called a "Florida Nazi".

But hey Oedipus, i am from germany i am a real german, BUT I AM NO FREAKING NAZI you handsomehunk. (You see when i insult people it is pretty direct, so now i have stepped over the line).

I am and will always be glad that Nazi-regime has been destroyed by the allies. I am in the Sozialdemokratic Party here, so i will ignore the buttheads that try to end every freaking discussion, they don't like cause it touches there heroic WW2 legends, by calling the opposition a Nazi.

I have given you the numbers for the LW in 1943, the JGs that were stationed on the french up to the norwegian coast, together with the JGs that were stationed within the Reich.
And everyone with a little brain in his skull could see that those were pretty few fighters for such a large area.

But anyway, i will end this here.

Offline Mathman

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2002, 06:02:31 AM »
Nazis suck ass.  Its a proven fact.  Hell, killing them should be an Olympic sport.  100 meter freestyle Nazi kill.  It would be more of a sport than that dancing with a ball and ribbon crap they pass off as gymnastics.

*NOTE FOR THE HUMOR IMPAIRED*
Please notice I used the word "Nazi" and not German.  I know there is a difference.  Germans make beer, Nazis die at the hand of Indiana Jones.

Offline hazed-

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2002, 02:31:05 PM »
Captain virgil roadkill whatever your name is.
you obviously take your history lessons from a decent book. perhaps that fine literary masterpeice of accurate historical info called ....hmmm what was it now?.....ah yes 'marvel's GI JOE' COMIC book.


Im british and as such on the allies side involving discussions on WW2 but unlike you i dont choose to believe the hype of hollywood movies.I prefer to read a whole selection of accounts ranging from German to British and American with as many others as its possible to find like Italian,Russian etc. I read accounts by the Australian and New Zealanders which dont always show my country (Britian) in a good light concerning what we asked of them.You see in my view the truth is more important than being able to claim my country had a 'top ace' etc.

heres an excerpt from 'Combat Crews' by John Comer who was in the 112th Cavalry in 1928 and never liked horses after that :).In 1943 he flew the missions from England on which this book is based.He was Engineer-top turret gunner in Fortresses.In 1944 he flew 50 missions from Italy.

this is on the return from a mission:

 ' As we approached Ridgewell, Kels punched me and pointed down "Cahow is buzzing the field" Indeed he was.At the 381st it was customary to permit a pilot returning from his twenty-fifth mission to buzz the field in celebration of a job well done.
  That day we lost seventeen Forts to German fighters.To my thinking the loss was exessive.It was the familiar pattern of late: loose, erratic formations inviting Jerry to attack.The accumulated losses in men and aircraft during the summer and fall of 1943 were staggering and beyond expectations.The replacement crews were put through speeded up training procedures, by no means as thorough as the original 381st received. The predictable result was that inexperienced pilots and crews predominated, and the price we paid was higher casualties than should have been necessary.In the air as on the ground, raw troops rarely fare well against seasoned battle-hardened forces.But an attrition factor was working for us: we were thinning out the experienced pilots of the luftwaffe.When a veteran German pilot with eight to ten years of training plus experience in numerous campaigns was lost, they could not replace him any faster than we could create his counterpart in the U.S. or England.The advantage in attrition gradually shifted to the side with the largest manpower and industrial facilities. Fortunately, that was the combined might of the Allied forces.'

Now pardon me but this hardly sounds like a 'nazi' roadkillting about how the Allies managed to overwhelm the LW does it? so why have you idiots got to start accusing people on here who are trying to describe this to you of the same?.

If you ask me you people saound like morons with no idea about what went on up there and hardly ever read a book on the subject.If you did, and i mean read almost ANY book about it you would know what was said in this excerpt is the accepted truth.

We, the allies, didnt always have the better equiptment or even the more experienced pilots, but we kept on attacking and attacking regardless almost of the losses until we broke Germanies back in a war of resources and manpower.Choose to believe otherwise and keep reading your comics if you have to but please dont post on here like you know what youre talking about because its pretty clear you dont.

What I find quite repulsive is this constant 'we had the best planes, best pilots, best this, best that,' crap you people keep spewing.Dont you realise that when you try to make out the LW as some third rate outfit you actually belittle what our forces had to face and win against?
You make it out as if the allies had it easy when it was a struggle.Its a comic book mentality you all seem to have. Like i said before yes there were days when the LW had the numbers in a LOCAL battle and there were days when the escorts were in the right place at the right time and outnumbered what the LW put up but overall the LW were simply outproduced and like this author i quoted says they simply could not replace the experienced pilots once they were lost and then it was down to who had the most manpower. Now whether you accept this or not is up to you but im pretty sure I'll believe a REAL veterans story rather than some virtual gamesplayer who thinks he actually is a captain in some fictitious virtual squadron.I think you might just need medical help myself :)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Here we go again
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2002, 02:50:20 PM »
Here we have another Luftwaffe fan who can do no better than screaming fits and insults.

Hazed, have you no better retort than to call me names?

Read books? Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. Talk to veterans? Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, I get email fairly regularly from several veterans, and a couple of well respected authors.

Listen, Hazed, and the rest of the armchair Luftwaffe, if the best you can do is throw screaming fits, sling cheap and pitiful insults, and post a bunch of crap like you do, just don't waste time and bandwidth. I've been studying World War II since about 1973, and discussing it with veterans, historians, and noted authors for about 20 years. If you want to argue facts, without all the other crap you seem to drag into every thread, let me know, I'll be happy to have an intelligent discussion on the subject. But I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, which seems to be all that is available here.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline DeadDuck

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2002, 03:11:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Listen, Hazed, and the rest of the armchair Luftwaffe, if the best you can do is throw screaming fits, sling cheap and pitiful insults, and post a bunch of crap like you do, just don't waste time and bandwidth. I've been studying World War II since about 1973, and discussing it with veterans, historians, and noted authors for about 20 years. If you want to argue facts, without all the other crap you seem to drag into every thread, let me know, I'll be happy to have an intelligent discussion on the subject. But I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, which seems to be all that is available here.


They can't.  Spiritually this is the same crowd that used SWOTL as primary source documentation back on GEnie AW days.  They have endless fascination with organization tables and and mass market "fact" books, but very little desire to find or understand primary source documentation

About the only usefull purpose in life the junior luftwaffe auxilary serves is as squeak toys hehehehe

DD

Offline GRUNHERZ

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2002, 03:11:37 PM »
I find you use of the term "armchair Luftwaffe" highly amusing Sir Most High Honored Captain Virgil Hilts.... I guess you are the real thing fought in the skies during WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Or do you take your coloring book sing-a-long war fantasies or perhaps flightsims so seriously that you actually think you are the real deal fighter pilot reincarnate and then go about calling other people "armchair".  

You are funny.

Now I dont really care to such an anal extent about what happened in WW2 except that the good guys won, the bad guys lost and that the LW and many other countries planes looked cool doing it. Plus it makes fun reading and one hell of a game.

So there. I dont care about your fantasies and AOL buddy lists, you simply strike me as pompous jerk.  And thats not name calling thats a description....
 

Signed:

Uberfeldmarschall Scharfuhrer Untersturmfuhrer Oberfeldwebel Unterfeldwebel Grunherz Hultz

XIV/JG69 45th staffelhund Luftwobble

Stagnated Cabbage

Offline DeadDuck

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2002, 03:13:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So there. I dont care about your fantasies and AOL buddy lists, you simply strike me as pompous jerk.  And thats not name calling thats a description....
 


And your description of the junior luftwaffe would be?  

DD