A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)

[GRUNHERZ]

They too are all full of it too frankly. I find I get wrapped up in this stupid wrangling one way or another whatever the argument and then end up resenting the whole AH game and never fly much.

It's all childish and none of us here has the truth or even close. I guess thats why I'm so angry with his high Majesty Ubersturmfuhrer Virgil Hilts because he acts like such a smart bellybutton poumpous know it all and calls everyone else, especially those who disagree with him, "armchair". Like he was some sort of professional or a real WW2 pilot...

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
They too are all full of it too frankly. I find I get wrapped up in this stupid wrangling one way or another whatever the argument and then end up resenting the whole AH game and never fly much.

It's all childish and none of us here has the truth or even close. I guess thats why I'm so angry with his high Majesty Ubersturmfuhrer Virgil Hilts because he acts like such a smart bellybutton poumpous know it all and calls everyone else, especially those who disagree with him, "armchair". Like he was some sort of professional or a real WW2 pilot...

Oh, and I'm worse than Hazed, Naudet, Wotan, or you. Right. No, you're angry with me because I'm on the other side from you and your buddies, and I won't fold, nor will I sink the the flame level. Otherwise, you'd be just as angry with them, and you aren't. Double standard, on your part, not mine. Facts are facts.

No, I was not a fighter pilot, never claimed to be, I was 4F due to a wasted knee. I wish I had the opportunity. Whether you believe it or not, I do happen to correspond directly with around a half dozen or more real World War II fighter pilots, plus a couple of authors and historians.

DD is definitely right, the best use for the majority is as a squeak toy (TM). Oh well, it ain't my problem.

[GRUNHERZ]

Then explain armchair? Do you actually think you are any better informed than the average person on this BBS? Do you have acces to speacial info only available to "non armchair" types like those rank Captain and above?

[hazed-]

captain virgil, (now isnt that the pilot of thunderbirds 2?)

Ive tried to tell you why i think what you spout is nonsense and gave you one of many books written by REAL WW2 veterans, easily verifyable by buying the book i have given you the title and author of but you choose to try to claim you have some kind of inside information.Well Im asking you to verify your so called veteran email pals.And listing their names isnt going to cut it.Seems to me the internet is full of people who realy do believe the bs they spout.I havent seen you refer to any book or author or veteran or anything else.Nothing we can check up on or read apart from the odd WB web site created by similar fictitious 'Captains'.Its all roadkill made up by those who have had years of practice producing mindless pap.its quite obvious we wouldnt be able to compete with it, nor would we want to, or we would appear to be as full of crap as you do.

 I havent sided with anyone on this thread if you would care to read what ive posted.I have merely given you published figures and quotes from published books.More than what you have i might add.Your opinion counts for nothing for me unless you can prove to me you were there or are a writer of some note.My guess is you are a 'armchair' gameplayer with a dellusion that he was somehow there.Your so called veteran email friends are probably a collection of a similar group of like minded sim pilots who write AAR's for their nightly playing and decide they are good enough to be the real thing.

what a sad lot you are.I come here to fly in a game and i go elsewhere for an accurate picture of what happened during the war.Now unless you can somehow prove the books im reading are fictitious, and you can start with John Comers, I suggest you give up trying to make out you know better than those said books.

[Soulyss]

I've often wondered, having read pilot accounts from both sides... they both claim that they were outnumbered all the time.  I've thought many times that it was a matter of preception.  

To an allied escort the bombers don't factor into the occasion.  To him seeing enemy fighters it was about fighter vs fighter combat.  So in a situation of lets say 20 allied fighters escorting 100 bombers being attacked by 50 axis fighters.  The allied fighter pilot sees himself as being outnumbered 50:20.   The axis pilot on the other hand sees (20+100) 120 enemy planes all trying to kill him.  So in the same situation he'd describe himself as being outnumbered 120:50.


This could explain at least the observations of servicemen in combat.  I don't have any info sitting in front of me concerning squadron strength or anything like that so I won't make an argument on somthing I admittedly know little about.  But I think this idea of perception of combat would account for the stories we've heard about side X allways being outnumbered in the air by side Y.  

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Then explain armchair? Do you actually think you are any better informed than the average person on this BBS? Do you have acces to speacial info only available to "non armchair" types like those rank Captain and above?

Other than direct access to some of the pilots who were there, and a couple of historians/authors, no, I don't have access to anything that is not available to anyone else. I never claimed to. Am I better informed than the AVERAGE person? Probably.

The thing is, I do not go looking for information to prove my point, I'm not searching for one thing and disregarding everything else. I look for all the information in a quest for the truth. The problem with most people is they go looking for information to support their beliefs and suppositions. It colors everything they find, and the conclusions they reach.

When I find myself discounting something out of hand without finding out whether it is or could be true, I stop, and walk away. I won't go back to the research until I can clear my mind of the predisposition to a certain conclusion. Try it sometime.

I've caught myself doing bad research several times, and I've been wrong in my preconceived notion at least as often as I've been right. I started out stopping when I found the information I WANTED. Wrong way to go about it. Find the information you DON'T want, then find the rest. Do it that way and you'll be right about 80% of the time, and the other 20% you'll either have been real close, or you'll find there was information you couldn't find the first time. You learn just as much, if not more, when you LOSE and arguement. And I've lost plenty.

[GRUNHERZ]

But why do you think you are special in:

"The thing is, I do not go looking for information to prove my point, I'm not searching for one thing and disregarding everything else"

Or why do you think others do not do this? How can you know this, do you look over people's shoulders when they read their reference books or talk to ww2 pilots? Is it because your research may have led you to a different conclusion?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by hazed-
captain virgil, (now isnt that the pilot of thunderbirds 2?)

Ive tried to tell you why i think what you spout is nonsense and gave you one of many books written by REAL WW2 veterans, easily verifyable by buying the book i have given you the title and author of but you choose to try to claim you have some kind of inside information.Well Im asking you to verify your so called veteran email pals.And listing their names isnt going to cut it.Seems to me the internet is full of people who realy do believe the bs they spout.I havent seen you refer to any book or author or veteran or anything else.Nothing we can check up on or read apart from the odd WB web site created by similar fictitious 'Captains'.Its all roadkill made up by those who have had years of practice and quite obviously we wouldnt be able to compete with it, nor would we want to or we would appear to be as full of crap as you do.

 I havent sided with anyone on this thread if you would care to read what ive posted.I have merely given you published figures and quotes from published books.More than what you have i might add.Your opinion counts for nothing for me unless you can prove to me you were there or are a writer of some note.My guess is you are a 'armchair' gameplayer with a dillusion that he was somehow there.Your so called veteran email friends are probably a collection of a similar group of like minded sim pilots who write AAR's for their nights playing and decide they are good enough to be the real thing.

what a sad lot you are.I come here to fly in a game and i go elsewhere for an accurate picture of what happened during the war.Now unless you can somehow prove the books im reading are fictitious I suggest you give up trying to make out you know better than those said books.

I'll read the book Hazed, when I have time. I have plenty of reading to do, and not nearly enough time. I'm going to buy several more books this year, the one you suggested will likely be one of them. I never quit reading, nor do I quit asking questions. Not by a long shot have I read even 20% of what is available, so I've got a long way to go.

If you think I'm going to give out email addresses of pilots I know you are sadly mistaken. I will not be so foolish as to post someone else's email address (especially those of persons who are 80 years old and don't want to be spammed by a bunch of people who do not have any idea of what they are talking about) on any bulletin board, especially not on the Internet. It's hard to develop friends like them, and quite frankly, I'm not willing to risk being so rude and inconsiderate as to post their emaill addresses just to make you happy. Neither you, nor anyone else here is so important as to make me do something that foolish. I don't have an ego problem, so impressing you or anyone else isn't important to me.

Now, if you want to ask Widewing if I have the email address of guys like Art Heiden, Warren Bodie, Stan Richardson, Ken Lloyd, or several others, go ahead. In fact, Widewing gave me a couple of those addresses, as did Dr. Carlo Kopp. The pilots passed along a few more. I could care less what you choose to believe. I know the guys I said I know, and that's enough for me. I don't need the approval of a bunch of people on the Internet.

By the way, keep up the insults, you get smarter everytime you post them. Speaking of squeak toys, you're getting really good at it.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But why do you think you are special in:

"The thing is, I do not go looking for information to prove my point, I'm not searching for one thing and disregarding everything else"

Or why do you think others do not do this? How can you know this, do you look over people's shoulders when they read their reference books or talk to ww2 pilots? Is it because your research may have led you to a different conclusion?

I know for a fact that some others do, I didn't invent the idea, never claimed to. But I've found that a lot of people don't. In fact, the majority don't, and if they did find facts that were in direct conflict with their conclusion, they will not even consider it.

I don't have time to look over anyone else's shoulder, and if I did have time, I'd find a better use for it.

I see a lot of the same thing, on every bulletin board, and in every newsgroup, this place ain't special. Like I said, I've done it too, but I've learned better. They haven't closed all the books on it yet, I still learn, I find new information and new sources, even in here.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

By the way, why is it everyone is all hung up on the Captain thing? It's just a name, from a fictional character in a movie. I took it because I am usually grounded, or shot down. It's a joke on me, because I'm barely a decent pilot, at best. As such, the character is an Allied POW in a Luftwaffe POW camp. Always plotting an escape, and always being a wiseguy. Jeez, you guys really get hung up on nothing.

[GRUNHERZ]

Captain fits in with your behavior, belive me.

[hazed-]

Ok youve answered it all for me virgil, sorry the captain part is sticking in my throat.

'I wont publish email adresses' ? who asked you to? The way you have now gone into what id call overemphasised refusal to 'post emails' which you wasnt asked to do anyhow makes me suspect you even more.
 Theres many ways to prove that you are in correspondance.For one thing showing us a little of it that may persuade us it isnt fictitious.Perhaps giving some of their names and their backgrounds.Even telling us why on earth these people would want to converse with you, as in perhaps a published article? a book? You dont have to break any trusts merely by saying which particular historian you know.

anything basically other than 'I am in costant touch with veterans and historians alike'.

All im pointing out is any one of us could type that out and seeing as how these types of boards are full of idiots who do lie about things like this I'd like to see why we should think of you as anything but another one of them?.I havent seen a single item to make me think you are genuine at all.

Seems the best answer in here is 'Read a book' everytime i see dumb blanket statements about the airwar numbers because anyone who actually has anything worth hearing to the contrary will give you their sources of reference to disprove you or at least point you in the direction of where that information could be obtained.You have done none of this.

forgive me but when i suspect a fraud i tend to start name calling after im accused of being a 'nazi'.I would imagine naudet, being German it is even more offensive.What do you expect, praise?

[akak]

Originally posted by Glasses


You named a couple of instances were the LW had to resort, to doing that sort of thing. Hmmm. Could it be Simply put they used it as last resort? However the allies,the good tacticians they were, decided to commit another type of genocide  but with bombs but again they won so there of course will not be a tribunals to try these "heroes" of WW2, for bombing Frankfurt, Berlin, Dresden, Hamburg and kill thousands of civilians, war is hell in deed but look at how the "evil Germans" conducted war against the All "good" allies, at least the "evil ones" had respect for the Genova convention,and behaved in foreign soil. Amazing, isn't it?

 

All too laughable how you try to revise history and continue in a vane effort to portray the Nazi's as some type of heroes.  You seem to forget such incidents as Guernica or the bombings of Rotterdam and Warsaw.  In just a couple of days of bombing, thousands of civilian Poles lost their lives during the Warsaw bombings.  

And behaved on foreign soil?  Is that why  virtually all the occupied countries actively resisted the Nazis?  Is that why Ukraine, which treated the Nazis at first as liberators, turned on them?  


Ack-Ack

[Wotan]

Hazed and the rest all you need to do is go back and  read the post and see who the ones are that start the insults. Look at Cap'n's response to my last post (which may have been a bit much but I wont edit it or apologize for it) all he post is lies. He started the insults then lies about it. Its there for anyone to read.

He is in fact a liar so what ever he says is worth a grain of salt. He insults, then plays victim.

Ole' Cap'n is a complete clown and if I were you I wouldnt waste your time on him.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Just for you, Hazed. The short list.

Captain Stan Richardson Jr. USAAF (Advanced P-38 instructor, P-51 pilot, veteran pilot of the 8th AF, and of Korea)

Captain Arthur Heiden USAAF (P-38 pilot, P-51 pilot, 8th AF, and also friend of Captain and later Major, Jack Ilfrey)

Captain Bill Safarik USAAF (P-38 pilot, now deceased)

Captain Bill Capron USAAF (P-38 pilot)

Lt Ken Lloyd USAAF (P-38 pilot, of the 475th Headhunters)

Warren Bodie noted author, former Lockheed engineer

Captain David Mason USAF F4 Phantom pilot and aircraft archeologist

Several of them I did some research on, and sent a very polite email to, and got plenty of responses, and that is where it began. There are at least a dozen or so others I have not talked to recently, and I've lost a bunch of email addresses by being so stupid as to only keep copies on my computer. Hell, I lost 5 years of research that way. Some of the others contacted me about research they were working on.

As far as being published, no I have not had anything published, I've done some research for one or two articles other people were writing, and nothing more. You do not have to be remarkable to get to know these guys, you just have to be intelligent, respectful, and polite. I've asked them to provide insight and information for people who've asked me to find information for them, and they've been extremely cooperative.

Wotan, prove it. Go ahead. Bring it on. You have no proof. I know it, you know, and everyone else knows it. Like I said, call names, hurl insults, and best of all, make threats, it looks good on you. You, are a classic.