Author Topic: A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)  (Read 1944 times)

Offline DeadDuck

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #75 on: September 29, 2002, 06:35:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Or why do you think others do not do this? How can you know this, do you look over people's shoulders when they read their reference books or talk to ww2 pilots? Is it because your research may have led you to a different conclusion?


I don't think the squeak toys do it because I have watched them sideslip every single fact presented with sources.  They don't point out errors or provide their own documentaion..they IGNORE it.  

Several folks have posted #s of available allied fighters and the source for the numbers.  These numbers have been wildly at odds with the numbers the sueakers are presenting.  In every case they press on without addressing decrepancies.

Also when looking for data primary source ( and surviving WWII pilot IS such ) is always more reliable than 2cnd, 3rd or later generation hearsay as are authors that can be communicated with.  Why you ask?  Because decrepancies can be QUESTIONED.

"You say x in your book, but this book says y.  How do you account for that?"

So yes his communicated WITH these people DOES give him a leg up.

DD

Offline DeadDuck

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #76 on: September 29, 2002, 06:36:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Just for you, Hazed. The short list.


You might check out Bigweek NG.  Some cool discussions (and a lot of flames) there:)

DD

Offline Oldman731

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2002, 11:52:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
No Seeker, the point in this discussion is that the allied escorts were not truly outnumbered in mid 1943 allthought there numbers looked pretty small on paper compared to the fighters the LW had to defend the German Reich on paper.

I could try to analyse why the LW lost both the BoB and the Battle of the Reich, but that would take a huge answer, that doesnt relate to this thread.

Thus far, as DD observed, no one has addressed the numbers I provided in an earlier post.  Those numbers show that the Allied escorts, throughout the second half of 1943, were outnumbered.  I think we're probably all familiar with the tactics used by the US at the time, which meant that the Germans would seldom, if ever, encounter anything larger than a 48-plane US fighter group in one place at any given time.  Somehow I've missed where the reverse was proven.

And I'd love to see your wall of text on why the Luftwaffe lost the air war, Naudet.  I'm sure others would be interested, too.

- oldman

Offline Wotan

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2002, 12:50:56 PM »
Quote
I did not think I'd need a disclaimer explaining a twist on the Blue Bros "Illinois Nazis'" comment mixed with the counting issues of Floridians.


Ah see your more clever then myself, I guess.

I dont watch much tv / movies etc but after hearing Nazi this and that in all these threads I'd had enough. I dont tend to pay much attention to the "cryptic" meaning behind folks posts. I had left these threads after it was clear most of you werent reading the replies just spewing off and repeating the same stuff and over.

I am not going to continuely repeat myself so I would suggest you re-read each thread. Or dont thats up to you.

I do think that it may be best if when arguing your point that you stick to the topic or at the very least dont assume that everyone that doesnt agree with you must be a "nazi" or "nazi apologist".

Offline minus

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2002, 12:50:57 PM »
bah looks like ,,Captain america something,, ==== citabria ????????? all the crap around  p 38 miracle :D :p


yup i em luwftwobel i sux and i whine and i called MINUS :p

ups have to :edit , maybe not fester alias <> maybe just  a ex AW player who  mising AW super P38 ????
« Last Edit: September 30, 2002, 12:54:26 PM by minus »

Offline Arlo

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2002, 07:02:47 PM »
It's not all that hard to figure out when the agenda is dropped and the brain is engaged.

Quote
Originally posted by Wotan


I dont tend to pay much attention to the "cryptic" meaning behind folks posts. edit/correct: I don't tend to pay much attention.

Offline Arlo

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2002, 07:05:30 PM »
And the "cryptic" phrase insinuated in the above post is:

mindless agenda

 You're welcome!

Offline hazed-

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #82 on: September 30, 2002, 07:38:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Just for you, Hazed. The short list.

Captain Stan Richardson Jr. USAAF (Advanced P-38 instructor, P-51 pilot, veteran pilot of the 8th AF, and of Korea)

Captain Arthur Heiden USAAF (P-38 pilot, P-51 pilot, 8th AF, and also friend of Captain and later Major, Jack Ilfrey)

Captain Bill Safarik USAAF (P-38 pilot, now deceased)

Captain Bill Capron USAAF (P-38 pilot)

Lt Ken Lloyd USAAF (P-38 pilot, of the 475th Headhunters)

Warren Bodie noted author, former Lockheed engineer

Captain David Mason USAF F4 Phantom pilot and aircraft archeologist

Several of them I did some research on, and sent a very polite email to, and got plenty of responses, and that is where it began. There are at least a dozen or so others I have not talked to recently, and I've lost a bunch of email addresses by being so stupid as to only keep copies on my computer. Hell, I lost 5 years of research that way. Some of the others contacted me about research they were working on.

As far as being published, no I have not had anything published, I've done some research for one or two articles other people were writing, and nothing more. You do not have to be remarkable to get to know these guys, you just have to be intelligent, respectful, and polite. I've asked them to provide insight and information for people who've asked me to find information for them, and they've been extremely cooperative.

Wotan, prove it. Go ahead. Bring it on. You have no proof. I know it, you know, and everyone else knows it. Like I said, call names, hurl insults, and best of all, make threats, it looks good on you. You, are a classic.



ok looks respectable on the surface. and I truelly hope you are telling the truth about these contacts.Judgeing by the fact you lost '5 years research' you have indeed read more than i have because i havent done anything more than read what id estimate as some (maybe) 50-60 books or so on WW2.Probably 20 or so of those concerning the air war.But I still find it difficult to understand why you insist allies were always outnumbered?
Like i have stated from what ive read it swayed back and forth in local airbattles literally from day to day.virgil you would claim that what you have said in here is what these particular veterans you have listed would agree with? or at least you have gathered from what they have told you?

I never once disputed the numbers given for the P38s and other fighters numbers, what i actually posted was some info on what i had.Which was a good indication of 190's.I added that i thought 60 (mentioned in another post) was rather conservative considering the numbers i had for 190s alone.I gave you a quote from a Veteran who in his own published words summed up the air battles over Europe as a meat grinder that through attrition gradually gave the allies the edge.Is it really so hard to accept that LW flyers , having flown for some 6(?) years before 1943 in various campaigns might have had the edge on what were essentially green pilots from the US? forgive me if i have this wrong but i wasnt aware that America had experienced (combat hardened)pilots to put up against the Luftwaffe in 1943 apart from those that volenteered to serve with the RAF or the flying tigers etc.
What i find astounding is that im called a nazi for pointing out what i find blindingly obvious.

Also another point brought up here by Oed:
Quote
'Thus far, as DD observed, no one has addressed the numbers I provided in an earlier post. Those numbers show that the Allied escorts, throughout the second half of 1943, were outnumbered. I think we're probably all familiar with the tactics used by the US at the time, which meant that the Germans would seldom, if ever, encounter anything larger than a 48-plane US fighter group in one place at any given time. Somehow I've missed where the reverse was proven.'


This isnt quite how you phrased it oed. What you claimed/implied was that the USAAF was always outnumbered and won despite fighting overwhelming odds.Implying it was always this way.Oversimplifying all the different types of engagements.True glassess did the same with his 10:1 figure which i have struggled to find in my references but i have read accounts where the Germans were mauled by huge escort numbers whilst climbing to engage the bombers.If you had have said just/only in early 43 id have whole heartedly agreed with you for the main reason that most of the time what escorts the b17s did have (p47s/spitfires)did not hardly ever engage with the LW bomber interceptors because they simply waited for them to turn back before attacking the bombers.Yes in this instance the LW outnumbered the escorts because they werent there were they.It was the REASON there was such a demand FOR long range escorts.The bombers were mauled when they were alone.When the escorts could keep with the bombers the LW was essentially finished.
If you read the numbers for any single zone the paper numbers dont always apply.Admittedly the way some have gone about phrasing this is easily taken as flat statements which i dont always agree with but i think they DO have a point.
This doesnt mean they didnt have some successes after this date though, as any history book can tell you, and as i said now and then the escorts were not always there in the right place.
 you fail to accept and i think you are doing so only to further the arguements/namecalling that the numbers of LW fighters ordered to engage the fighters and the number ordered to engage the bombers DOES affect the battles. (essentially 190a8s,110s,410s,ju88s attacked bombers whilst 109s GENERALLY tried to divert or destroy the escort).I realise thats an oversimplification but it seems i am talking to simpletons from what ive seen in terms of handsomehunked insults.Claiming these things doesnt make me a nazi.You can read about it in all types of accounts from American to British to German.
From what ive seen everyone is just focusing on who is saying things and not always what they are saying.too eager to snap at someone for making an input like the suggestion that a fighter attacking a bomber is more vulnerable to an escort than a fighter attacking the escort alone.would anyone care to deny this?
that was the point being made i thought.Not that there was 'never' a fighter that attacked an escort plane.That would be ludicrus.

Anyway, virgil,back to the veterans list, I'd like to see some accounts from these guys listed if they allow you to post them.Any AARs i find interesting.Perhaps Capt Virgil you could post some that concern this very thing we are discussing? you seem so positive about it so why not show us all why you are?



P.s. heres some very small clips fromcomers book:

september 16th:
'The escort flew criss cross patterns above us for an hour and nothing happened.Then the navigator spotted trouble.
"navigator to crew,109's eleven oclock low-looks like about 50 of them"
 Reliable Jerry had timed the range of the escort perfectly and approached the formation at the time the 47's would have to turn back.When the thunderbolts were gone the enemy interceptors pulled up to our altitiude'

November 3rd:
'We'll pick up 50 p47's at the coast on the way in.But the big news is we have P38s with us over the target'
 There were whoops of joy! We were completely unaware that P38's had arrived in England until that day.The lockheed Lightning was powered by two liquid cooled engines and had a double tail boom.Its main feature was long range and strong contruction.Fighting characteristics were good, but not great.It had performed  well in North African campaign against German aircraft, but how would it stack up against the rarified air of 25 to 30 thousand feet, against the best pilots the enemy could muster, was yet to be determined.But even a fair performance on those long penetrations, with the rocket menace hovering in the background, would be a tremendous help.There was no doubt that they could easily handle the rocket carrying fighters with those awkward chutes hanging under each wing.'

it goes on later:

'Turret to crew those germans got a big surprise coming.P38's at four oclock high'
 I watched a P38 lead plane pick out a target and go into a steep dive.To my surprise the p38 caught a blast of fire from somewhere and broke into two peices and fell away in flames.The other p38s pulled back up and decided to look things over a bit more carefully.
 "Navigator to co pilot"
 "go ahead"
 "Did you see what happened to that P38?"
 "he got caught by a 109 he never saw-it'll take a while but they'll learn to use the P47 tactics-get careless with those 109s an they'll blow your bellybutton off"
 German and American fighters were evenly matched in numerical strength.I noticed that 38's seemed to fight in elements of two,while P47s used elements of four.But the 38's did better than i expected on their first encounter with the more experienced foes.'

like i said read the book , its superbly written.Please dont read ANYTHING into these clips fromthe book.I merely typed out the first references to enemy numbers and the p38s etc i found. Im not implying one way or another about whether this guy (an engineer) knew the whole ins and outs of p38s etc.(sheesh we have to have disclaimers now!)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2002, 08:42:10 PM by hazed- »

Offline Wotan

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2002, 07:56:38 PM »
arlo always the clown, he referenced some tv show in an attempt at wit. It may have been funny to those of you who seen the show hes talking about.

It means nothing at all to me.

Offline Arlo

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2002, 08:21:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
arlo always the clown, he referenced some tv show in an attempt at wit. It may have been funny to those of you who seen the show hes talking about.

It means nothing at all to me.


 Dammit! Get your priorities straightened out, man! If the German people had of watched the Blues Brothers back in the late twenties then Hitler wouldn't have had as many sales of Mein Kampf! Or is that the point? ;)

Offline eddiek

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #85 on: September 30, 2002, 10:28:42 PM »
Well, I wasn't gonna say anything, as this thread has degraded into a hopeless mess, but........
Fellas, it is all a matter of perspective.  To the LW pilots, it would have appeared they WERE outnumbered when you add up the total force of bombers AND escorts.
The Allied fighter pilots had an opposite view, that of seeing more enemy fighters in the air to intercept the buffs than there were escorts.
It would appear that the raw Allied numbers were not as important as the correlation of forces, i.e. the ratio of escorts:bombers, at least from an Allied viewpoint.  Say you send out 48 fighters to escort 300 bombers, and you run into 120 LW fighters.  "Dang, we were outnumbered by at least 2 to 1, maybe even 3 to 1."
Now, those same 120 LW pilots see 300 bombers and those same 48 Allied fighters, and they are gonna say, "We were outnumbered almost 3:1 today."
Who is correct?  Both?  Neither?
I say both were correct, at least from their individual points of view.  
The Allied escort pilots see themselves as the defenders against the LW interceptors, and they categorize themselves as 48 vs 120, they don't consider the bombers as part of the aerial fight, more like the bombers are their flock of sheep to be defended against the LW interceptors, the wolves if you will.
The LW pilots see the entire force of 348 planes as the threat that must be dealt with, not just the fighters, not just the bombers; from their point of view, hell yes they are outnumbered.
I wish the partisan side taking would stop.  I can see posts from each side here that would provoke flaming responses.  Come on folks, this is history we are talking here, and is not something we can change.  
I'm gonna stop now, before someone accuses me of taking sides, and I wanna be clear that I am not.  But I do want to stress one point, or at least my own opinion on some of these pilot accounts.   Just because a pilot has a book published does NOT make him unfallable.  I have talked to several pilots who have not published anything, and their experiences are just as real and authoritative as anything Johnson, Gabreski, Rall, or Galland ever said.  They just keep it private and share their memories amongst themselves.  Remember, a pilot's memories and recollections are just that, HIS OWN memories, and in the end, he speaks for no one but himself.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #86 on: September 30, 2002, 10:42:01 PM »
Hazed,
If I lead you to think I considered the pilots of the Luftwaffe to be inferior, then you misunderstood me. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've stated for years that, especially in the case of the 20th and 55th, they were not only green, but so was their command staff. Stan and Art both complained about lack of leadership and experience at times, and confidence at other times. On the other hand, the Luftwaffe pilots were experienced, battle hardened, and talented. On the squadron level they were fairly well lead.

However, between October of 1943 and February of 1944, and especially in October and November of 1943, the deep penetration escorts were overwhelmingly outnumbered by the Luftwaffe. Most often, the best the escorts could do was 80% strength at take off, and early returns accounted for the loss of as much as 50% of that strength. On any given mission, the entire available deep penetration escort in October and November consisted of the above mentioned 80% of ONE FIGHTER GROUP. That's a fact. Entire 200 to 400 bomber groups were covered by as few as 50 fighters when they were actually IN Germany. These same 50 planes flew the ENTIRE mission. They had enough fuel for 5 minutes of combat at 100% throttle, any more than that and the best they could hope for was a swim in a cold English Channel. The P-38s most often flew from the WEST side of England, forcing them to fly longer than any other group.

Beginning in February, the numbers BEGAN to become more equal. Finally, the P-51s were arriving in strength, the P-47s gained longer legs, and more P-38s arrived. However, both the P-38s and the P-51s were still experiencing teething problems, and they were still tied to close escort. Only when the escorts were released to engage the Luftwaffe on their own terms, and when escort duty was assigned in stages, allowing the escorts to work in shifts on each mission, did the end begin to come quickly. The idea that there were suddenly overwhelming numbers of Allied fighters is false. Only in April did the number of P-51s deployed to Europe even equal that of the P-38s. There was still a serious shortage of drop tanks, especially for the P-47s.

There was a serious shortage of well trained replacement pilots, and they were often sent to the wrong units. Art said it was not at all uncommon to get replacement pilots who had never even sat in a P-38, nevermind flown one. Trained P-38 pilots were often sent to P-51 or P-47 equipped units.

There was even a lingering problem with poor fuel quality that caused extreme difficulty with both the P-38 and the P-51. Fouled plugs, rough engines, blown head gaskets and cracked heads (those last two are FATAL to a P-51, a cooling system problem meant a P-51 had a very few minutes to fly under power) blown up intercoolers, kicked rods, and burnt valves, were all COMMON problems. Only after Doolittle took over did the fuel issue get resolved, and then only because Doolittle was a Shell employee in his civilian career.

Contrary to popular belief, the 8th AF spent as much time shooting itself in the foot as it did shooting down the Luftwaffe. The list of mistakes made by the 8th AF and even higher staff is longer than anyone cares to recount.

Back to your first post that began this whole thing. The first glaring error I saw in what you quoted was the fact that the Luftwaffe pilot thought the P-51 was  more manueverable and a better climber than the P-38 showed he did not know his opponent well. In fact, neither is true, and the P-38 was actually faster at higher altitudes. I'm not saying the whole book is wrong or without merit, I'm just saying that the first quote is an opinion that is in fact just that, an opinion, easily refuted by facts. I hope to be able to read the book sometime soon, I'm sure there is valuable information in it.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Montezuma

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #87 on: September 30, 2002, 11:37:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hazed-
What I find quite repulsive is this constant 'we had the best planes, best pilots, best this, best that,' crap you people keep spewing.



The USAAF had the best pilots and the best planes.

Offline J_A_B

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2002, 12:04:15 AM »
"The first glaring error I saw in what you quoted was the fact that the Luftwaffe pilot thought the P-51 was more manueverable and a better climber than the P-38 showed he did not know his opponent well. In fact, neither is true, and the P-38 was actually faster at higher altitudes."

As much as I hate to contradict you, the LW pilot was pretty much right if we're talking about late '43/early '44 here.  At combat altitudes--around 25-30K--the P-51B would outrun and outclimb the P-38J's, and was generally more maneuverable (even ignoring that it was harder to get max maneuverability out of the 38 than the 51).

The thing is the P-51 got f***ed up when the builders slapped a different engine into it--the engine  critical altitude was reduced for some god-unknown reason--and at 30K the plane lost quite a bit of speed and over 1000 FPM off its climbrate for just a modest increase at low altitudes.   Whoever was in charge (War Production Board?) kept screwing up our fighters right up to the end of the war.

J_A_B

Offline whgates3

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A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2002, 03:25:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
...Whoever was in charge (War Production Board?) kept screwing up our fighters right up to the end of the war...

those moron shot down the P-38K because they didn't want to stop Lockheed's factories for a couple weeks

jerks
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/P-38K.html