re-thinking La7 use.

[SlapShot]

and slap.. my beef is not with the anal strat guys taking fields in a mob necessarily... I mean, if they think that is fun but.... they got the whole map to gangbang so... why come over to a worthless field or cv to "help out"? Why? well.... because they crave the attention. They want to be part of what is happening. they can't get the furballers to join em so they join the furballers. Like I said... they have plenty of other targets/fields whatever. why ruin the only good furball. Sure, another one will develop given time but as soon as they see some numbers..... the friggin strat guys will drag their attention starved butts over to ruin it. I'm just saying it seems like it is getting worse lately.

Lazs ...

You may have a point there ... BUT ... if a furball rises near HQ or the mainland, the base or CV supplying the furball is in definate danger of being destroyed.

As CO for the [M.A.W.] Blacksheep, I can say with certainty, that when we decide to destroy a base or a CV, it is not with the intention of getting attention ... it is only another piece in the bigger "strat" puzzle that we must take. Never have we said, "Lets go destroy the furball" ... we usually avoid the furball area and attack a base or bases that have been ingnored by the enemy furballers. That strategy is sometimes used to quell the furball participation by the enemy.

I can't speak for the intentions of other squads ... maybe they do do it for attention.

Oh .. why don't you drop the un-needed adjectives. You are as "anal" about furballing, as strat guys are about taking bases. So its the case of the "pot calling the kettle black". I know you do it for "effect", but really, there is no need for it.

<>

[beet1e]

Lazs,

I don’t think Maths (or “Math”, as you call it in your country) is your strong suit. Where do you get these figures???? I have just reviewed my stats for those last three tours – total 969K, 295D = overall k/d of 3.28/1. Where do you get this 1.5 to 1? Is there another guy called Beet1e? If you were just looking at the P47D25 values, I only started flying that seriously in the Tour that just ended - 33k, 2d. I fly it for air to air combat, and use the D30 for jabo. And unlike some people who fly one plane the whole time, I like to fly different planes plus GVs and field guns. I think you must have looked at my P47D25 killage and averaged it over three months – LOL! And I thought you were a smart guy. So did Tomato. She will be disappointed.

I see that your comprehension needs brushing up too.

It is obvious that you hate La's because they can hunt your cowardly solitary but down and kill you.

Oh yeah, I got killed twice by a LA7 last tour.

You’re right about one thing though:

Your stats show that you not only don't furball in a La7... you don't even fly one.

You could have gone further, and added that I don’t furball in anything.

I never fly either the LA7 or N1K online – but that does not mean I don’t fly them offline. Of course I do, because that’s the best way to work out their strengths and, more importantly, their weaknesses.

Anyway, I don’t need to labour my points here. All the other guys can check my stats for themselves if they want to.

I really don’t know what the futility-furball-furball scenario proves. And I sure as hell fail to see the importance of your beloved k/t statistic. That would depend very much on how many cons were available to be killed. And when I fly, there might only be 80 guys online. When YOU fly, there’s likely to be 300 or more.

When I began playing these war games, I had only scant knowledge of WW2 aircraft, other than those involved in the Battle of Britain, plus some of the planes used in the Pacific. I had never heard of the FW190!!!  But I have tried to educate myself by going to WW2 museums, by buying WW2 air combat videos, and by posing questions to guys here who know more than I do about WW2. I also bought Francis Gabreski’s book, and have attempted to re-enact some of the P47 missions he flew – as far as possible as the AH MA allows. Nowhere in his book does Gabby talk about furballing. Nowhere in his book does he talk about kills per hour. Nowhere did he gripe about the map, the terrain, the opposition, the amount of available daylight or the performance of his aircraft. That makes me realise, Lazs, just how artificial is your own perception of WW2, since you seem to gripe about a number of these factors. And yet I never thought you were one of those guys who can “win” only when their own preconceived array of arena criteria has been met. Maybe I was wrong?

[Gixer]

Widewing,

Question...

If the SBD is as good as you keep on saying it is, then surely questions have to be asked about it's flight modeling in AH, since it was a two seater Dive Bomber after all. And not a front line fighter.



...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers

[Vulcan]

Slapshot - fair enuff... it was a broad brush, then again I don't think I've come up against you so we won't know til that happens but I was generalising, but the generalisation still applies.

Puke - most people here know my 'moves' (that sounds so tacky), especially KB. If you haven't figured it out by now then you're not paying attention. I'll give you a clue on the key points to focus on - bad pitch control at high AoA (tendincy to snap roll), high E retention leading to long pilot blackouts, aversion to ground.

This years tour stats spell it out, the La is not hard to defeat unless the pilot absolutely knows its limits:
23:5
9:3
29:7
16:2
17:7
25:2

I can assure you many were genuine A2A, most of the kills would have been from Kbman where I died more.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Gixer
Widewing,

Question...

If the SBD is as good as you keep on saying it is, then surely questions have to be asked about it's flight modeling in AH, since it was a two seater Dive Bomber after all. And not a front line fighter.



...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers

Hi Gixer!

If we look at how the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps used the SBD, we find that it was pressed into service as a fighter on numerous occasions. Notably during the Battle of the Coral Sea and at Guadalcanal. Having a wing of considerable area, it proved to be "remarkably agile", or "surprisingly maneuverable", "nearly a match for the Zero". Indeed, with less than half full fuel tanks and devoid of external ordnance, its wing loading was virtually identical to the mid-war A6M5. Not only was this noteworthy, but the SBD was designed for steady loading exceeding 7.5 G in daily service, with a failure loading greater than 10.5 G (much stronger than HTC's modeling).

In late 1941, the SBD was finest dive bomber in service anywhere in the world. Even the famed Ju 87 Stuka was badly out-classed by the little Dauntless.

As late as 1943, a proposal to re-engine the SBD with the Wright R-2600 was seriously considered by the the USN as an alternative to trouble plagued Curtiss SB2C Helldiver. It was planned to stretch the fuselage 7 inches in front of the wing, and 10 inches behind, as well as increase the rudder area to compensate for the increased torque. Unfortunately, politics factored into the equation and no prototypes were ever ordered.

The SBD is accurately modeled as to flight envelope, but is woefully under-modeled in terms of airframe strength and durability.

My regards,

Widewing

[lazs2]

beet1e... my math may be faulty but.... your k/d for the last three tours that have  been completed is.... 2.56/1  1.30/1 and .66/1  when I add those up and divide by three I get 1.5/1 average.   Perhaps you have another way of doing it?  

as for the La7..  it is a very very capable plane with low ammo load and crappy guns.   I never could hit something if it was directly in front of me.   To fly it at all times and to fly it to it's strengths in the MA is kinda.... wussy but... so is flying only the P51 or D9 exclussivly and... only to their strengths.    

I still think that the la is useful to bust up a bunch of guys who are being far more wussy (gangbanging) than the la 7 could ever be.   I also feel that you don't know the first thing about the la or about the arena.    

slap..  I don't like any mob of a couple dozen planes hitting a lightly defended or not even defended field but that is, of course, up to you.   I find that behavior ten times wussier than flying the best plane for the situation but.....

that is not what I was talking about necessarily when I was talking about the attention starved.   We see groups of 1,2 or more who come to a good fight far off the beaten path and simply destroyu the fighter hangers or the cv and then move on..  well, everyone pretty much "moves on" since there is nothing to do anymore ther (and don't tell me abouit the joys of shooting up buildings).

[lazs2]

Oh... and bett1e said... "Lazs, I wondered what the hell you were doing in a Lazs-7.

If I were flying a Lazs-7, which I never do, any results I got in the form of kills would be counteracted by the total lack of a challenge. "

well.... I haven't flown the plane much but... I would challenge you to come with me on the sorties I have flown it.   I fly to a base that is being vultched by a half dozen up to 20 guys with no friendlies in the air.   Try to kill one or two and then beat the conga line of wussie "missun" types all starved for anything better than a building to shoot at following you home on the deck..  We will fly in together but once we get there u are on your own.    

That is what I think a "proper use" for the la or... 51 or D9 is... everything else is kinda.... wussie and unfun.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the Bk's
Ambassador of goodwill

[Turbot]

Originally posted by rv6
What's all the hub-bub over this tin-can looking piece of garish Russky crap-O-la~?  I'm surprised it could taxi out of the hangar,, sounding like "Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang" (pieces of metal falling off, empennage hanging to one side, etc)

cool picture - like the paint job

[beet1e]

Lazs. Your Math is porked. I don't see how you arrive at those figures. I use the Stats page. As you can see for tour 32 (partial screenshot attached) it is 328k, 98d. Stats for tours 31 and 30 are 360k/109d and 281k/88d respectively. Add 'em up and divide as you did, and I get 969/295 = 3.28 kills per death plus a few more decimals which I am prepared to discount. To get this page, go to stats, enter my name (penultimate character = 1 (one) not L) and click on both Kills In and Died In. That is the only way I view my stats as it provides me with what I need to know.

The P47D25 stats are shown here for the last tour, and show my k/d as 33/2, or 16½/1 if you prefer.

Assuming that HTC is not lying to me, what makes you think I don't know the first thing about the arena? Maybe I just know the second, third and fourth things about the arena? LOL! Come to think of it, what IS the first thing about the arena? Please enlighten me.

Anyway, just to provide a respite from the bickering (which I hope we will resume right after this) I had an LA5 all over me like a cheap suit this afternoon. I was low in P47D25. The damn LA5 caught me off guard. I tried to split S and run, and although that opened up separation at first, he caught right back up to me again. He was too close for me to convert the engagement into an HO, which I would almost certainly have won. Well, 80% certain. The last card up my sleeve was to barrel roll the P47, remembering what you said about it being easy to force an LAx overshoot. (It was you, wasn't it?) It worked. He managed to ping my engine out on the way past, but I gave him eight barrels at 400 yards, and he went down smoking. After I got the kill credit, I ditched successfully.

Now here's that stats page -

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by beet1e
Lazs. Your Math is porked. I don't see how you arrive at those figures. I use the Stats page.

The stats page does not include times where you crashed without credit to an enemy.  So if you died while deacking a field, or if you hit a mountain while afk or something... this won't show up that page.

It will, however, show up in the score page.  Your K/D will almost always be lower there than on the stats page.  I would consider it a more "accurate" measure than just going by the stats page alone.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[beet1e]

The stats page does not include times where you crashed without credit to an enemy.

DMF - you may be right about that, and admittedly I have had a few deaths like that, but not that many. But Lazs's analysis is completely wrong, and his figures are waaaaaayy off. On the way to the supermarket just now, I figured out what Lazs did. I think he looked at only my Fighter scores, whereas many of my missions are scored as Attack sorties. He did that last time we were arguing. It did not occur to him to check attack scores because he never scores his own flights like that, and you know Lazs - can only see things from his own point of view.

[Fariz]

It is nothing to argue about, la7 is a perfect killer. May be its reputation is spoiled due to fact that very few worthy pilots fly it. I am VVS type, and flying VVS RKKA planes most of my time ,but I use la7 for vulching or strat purposes only. It is too powerful and so not challenging. Good pilot can bring 7-10 kills each sortie in it without much problems. La5 is much more interesting.

[bowser]

nm

[Gixer]

Originally posted by Widewing


Hi Gixer!

If we look at how the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps used the SBD, we find that it was pressed into service as a fighter on numerous occasions.


The SBD is accurately modeled as to flight envelope, but is woefully under-modeled in terms of airframe strength and durability.

My regards,

Widewing

\



Widewing,  

Well, learn something new about military history every day from you guys, well every day i read the message boards. Was it pressed into service as a fighter  through choice?  Or through insufficent numbers of fighters being available at certin times when those battles took place?
 
Imagine what it could do with a couple 20mm's  


As for LA7's I agree with Urchin and Co they are an excellent overall fighter, though you rarely see one flown to it's strengths imho.

And personally quite enjoy seeing LA7's as their usually low and easy to suprise on most occasions (guess their like a dog in a car at times, watching the scenery flash by rather then looking behind) or if mixing it up don't fare very well in HO's against a Tiffie.



...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers

[Turbot]

Originally posted by Gixer
And personally quite enjoy seeing LA7's as their usually low and easy to suprise on most occasions (guess their like a dog in a car at times, watching the scenery flash by rather then looking behind)

I have never heard it put better.   God bless La7 pilots