Author Topic: Calibration Speeds for Buffs  (Read 839 times)

Offline Innominate

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« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2002, 07:44:13 PM »
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Originally posted by Soda
My arguement is I think they can with enough practice and through allowing a little flexibility in tactics.


No offense, but your argument is wrong.  Most bombers are capable of ONE precision drop.  After that, the reduced weight causes the plane to speed up, wrecking the calibration.  If you need to turn, it's going to get even worse.  Setting up a bombing run is half of the flight for the bomber sortie.  Doing anything but dropping all your bombs at once will wreak havoc on accuracy.

As for speed, there is no way to tell if your speed has changed, or wether it is stable, other than to wait.  A two or three mph change will cause you to completly miss.  The cockpit speedometer doesn't have the resolution to show small changes.  A high resolution speedometer is needed at the very LEAST for bombing.

In short, bombing can be very effective, but due to the calibration procedure, effect of minor speed changes, and lack of any way to tell whats going to happen untill you drop, the reliability is so bad that you're much better off divebombing.  A b17 formation, which is better off divebombing shows that something is broken.

Again, precision drops are possible.  Multiple passes are impractical.  Reliably killing a target is not possible, except with divebombs.

Oh, and then there is damage over time.  x number of bombers(assuming they level bomb, and dont divebomb) will do y amount of damage in z time.  x number of jabos will do y amount it damage in less than z time.  Jabos will do this more accuratly, more reliably, and offer the flexibility to loiter and provide CAP.

Offline Innominate

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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2002, 07:45:31 PM »
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
l
As for Innom...and my spelling and killing my arguments....not gonna say much except..If you cant understand it...dont reply..."i call it AH short hand...like ..lmfao..lol brb afk..cc. wtf...and of course..STFU..:...lolo:)


To be honest, I can only understand bits and pieces of it.  Most of it is downright painfull to try and read, so I just skip it.

Offline BGBMAW

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« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2002, 02:51:26 PM »
Inom.....im sorry ..I will try bettr to type..my squad also cries about it also....But thx Inom..your posts are correct...ANd i agree with you..I love to see other pilots with a good head on shoulders....

Love BiGB
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Offline Soda

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« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2002, 07:21:31 PM »
Quote
Most bombers are capable of ONE precision drop


Both in AH and historically.... correct.

Ok, that's a little sarcastic, I see what you're asking but did you know that the total difference in speed in a Lanc between fully loaded and empty was only 10mph?  Yeah, 10mph, with each bomb equalling exactly 1/14th of 10mph (ie. 7 bombs = 5mph).  Add to that the acceleration problem, it took 1 and a half minutes to accelerate that 5mph after dropping 7 bombs.  I can still hit something at 5mph difference from my calibrated speed.  I still found I could reverse, set the same manifold, and still expect to be within 5mph of my calibration speed if I dropped half my load on one pass, and half on the other.  That was still accurate enough to knock out my targets at 5mph difference from those alts.  That really was a product of a really good calibration though, since I tend to hold my aim point on calibration for at least 20seconds or more (not the 5-10 they say).

Honestly, most things are working against you when making a second pass.  The wind is a problem, since when above the layer it totally throws your bombs the wrong direction.  Second, the drones can barely follow a gentle turn.  Third, when bombing at top speed I found I had less time to hit targets on each pass since everything just passed underneath that much faster.  Also, when making a second run, at top speed, it took 3 or more minutes to actually accelerate back up to anything near top speed since the corner likely scrubbed off 20-30mph, at least, if you didn't sacrifice alt in the corner.  Finally, any second pass is likely to be far more opposed by enemy fighters than the first.

This is all why I went for my slower bombing method, it meant I could turn and accelerate up to speed more quickly, and get a second pass in before more fighters showed up.  A slower over target speed also gave me some time to rudder around a bit when in the sight and knock out several things in one pass.  I would use up my bombs in 2 passes and get the heck out of dodge.

The whole Jabo thing vs. bomber thing is true, they both tend to hit the same targets and yet the jabo is honestly more effective.  I think hitting airfields is better left to jabo unless attacking a large field where you have lots of closely spaced hangers.  The root of that problem is that bombers don't really have any good targets to hit.  The HQ is not very valuable, typically, and what else can you really hit that's of any value with a large bomb load.  HTC needs to address that with large area targets, like cities, petroleum fields (lots of rigs), rail yards, things suited to carpet bombing in one pass.  The City(s) for each country are not bad to hit, but honestly don't usually mean anything until the battle is all but over for one side or the other.  I do feel your pain with that, I wanna carpet bomb lots of closely spaced stuff.  As it is, bombers are mostly useless.

Add that to the multitude of other stuff wrong with bombers: damage carrying over (still), defensive gun convergence issues, etc..... I think overall bomber pilots right now have a raw deal.  That said, adding a speedo is not in my opinion going to really help, and I don't think it would be a good addition.  I can just see people abusing it by doing tricks like reversing quickly, diving to pick up speed again, recalibrating alt instantly, and then having a perfect calibration for your next run since you can watch the speedo in the bombsight.... that scenario wouldn't improve things for the game.  At least not in my opinion.

BGBMAW, damn, I could read the whole message you wrote in one pass... congrats.

-Soda
The Assassins.

Offline Innominate

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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2002, 07:27:21 PM »
Good points soda.

A couple of problems,
We currently know that strat targets will  be expanded to be more damagable by buffs.  Who cares though?  Strat is pointless.  A major overhaul of strat is needed, there needs to be an immediate and noticable effect from it.  With the current system, it takes multiple large attacks coordinated together for strat to be of any help.  It's easier just to use those people to attack the field, and cap it.

As long as nobody cares wether or not thier strat is being bombed, strat has no meaning other than getting your bomber rank up.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2002, 07:29:25 PM by Innominate »

Offline Soda

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« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2002, 09:03:17 PM »
Saying the strat is broken barely does justice, it is completely hooped.  From several standpoints it needs to be addressed, some of which are easy to remedy, others which are much more difficult.  The easy part would be to increase the concentration of targets within a strat square, making carpet style bombing more useful.  Honestly, calibrating forever so you can bomb from low alt and hit something is beyond what most players are willing to learn.  Bombing is tough now, no doubt, and it takes practice and time.  Making it a bit easier would be nice but I don't think fiddling with the bombsight is the way to go.  I think it should really entail a massive increase in target size so even a newbie can take off and hit something in a target square even if his calibration was half-way decent.  Now, that said, I do think a higher level of calibration skill should give better results.

ie.  If you had a large town with rivers, bridges, railyards, factories, etc, all in close proximity, then anyone should be able to hit the town in general and get some building kills.   A better bomber might be able to hit the factory district, knocking out more important factories, while a really good bomber pilot might be able to pick off the railyard... you get the idea.

Secondly, and this is much tougher, some way needs to be designed so bombing means something.  The problem is, it can't mean too much and it shouldn't mean too little.  We've been down both roads in AH in the last couple of years (I've been around a while).  When it means too much, a single pilot can basically throw the balance off with a single suicidal move.  Right now we have the opposite, strat targets are tough to get too when in enemy territory, and mean very little.  It's a really tough balancing act and HTC I'm sure is still trying to figure out how to get something that is fair to everyone.

The only way I've considered it might work, would be to increase the size, and number of strat targets.  That would put something in reach of all bomber pilots, while the more experienced ones would be able to inflict a higher level of damage because they could pick out specific areas of each city to bomb.  Deep raids might offer a higher reward, but honestly I don't think everyone wants to fly a 2 hour round trip bomber sortie (with climb times).  Also, you don't want to have to bring 5 guys along every time in order to actually be able to fight through a half dozen enemy fighters.  Big raids, like you used to see from time to time, still might go for big return, and hit deep.  Also, the larger the country, the more the infrastructure (strat) might mean, giving the underdogs a little boost from hitting targets.  If there were 30+ strat targets/side, of varying sizes and types, then it would diversify what you could hit.  Also, losing 1 or 2 might not make a big difference, but losing lots of them would.  Finally, to keep people in bombers, make the strat targets stay down for longer, possibly hours.  That way if a bomber pilot wanted to make a difference he would have to invest a couple of hours of attacks, for which the damage he did would last even longer.

Dunno, most of that is just a big brain dump, but I feel badly for bomber guys right now.  I used to fly bombers a fair amount, certainly more than now, but I think most people would agree that in the current state they are more interesting, but less useful.  Changing the bombsight wouldn't improve things, it would just focus you on hitting airfields, which is really a waste of bomber resources.

-Soda
The Assassins.

Offline BGBMAW

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« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2002, 04:11:43 PM »
ok..soda.u hijaked my Post...............


this is Plain an dsimple..I want calibrtaion speeds shown..along with current speed........


your Jabo vs Buff ideas are great but...Thats not how the MAw works...we have different groups who do diff things...

The Heavy Bom groups..move up ahead of our Jabo divisions....THERE i sno way the same amount of pilots can deliver the sam bom load to a HQ or strat..than Buff pilot can....


love BiGB...

And Soda..IMhave air marshals on board so do no tatempt to hi jak this thread..again.....lololo


love BiGB:)
xoxo

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2002, 09:20:38 PM »
about bombing..ranking...targets at airfields ought be rewarded far more than puke depots and such...Fh's are REAL hard to hit..and there's invariably a 25k 190 waiting on ya....guys who whack depots at 4am with really oughtnt get same score results, for those who measure folks by such things. (re: speed -- i usually put manifold pressure at 35 on a 17..open doors....wait 4-5 min or so..speed will be around 150 at 25k)...but the BIG thing

WHY CANT A fluff'n DRONE KEEP UP IN LEVEL FLIGHT!!!!!??? ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH


NOT LIKE it ISNT already hard enough bein outnumbered 187 to 95..NOW my fluff'n drones fall back in level flight and blow up! This happens with a dial-up..as well as T1 line with delay of 80's
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

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Offline BigGun

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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2002, 12:36:19 PM »
LOL...BigB is a tard, we all know it cuz of his spelling. Hell, you ought to hear him on squad channel. Actually, if you get to know him, he is very funny & I always look forward to flying if he is online.

One thing I do know about BigB is he is very accurate at hitting targets in the Buffs. Sure, he goofs around & does Deathstar things & all, but he can very accurately hit targets, I would guess 90% of time from Alt. If you want to thump chest & think rank or scores in AH means much go ahead. BigB is one who truely doesn't care about that stuff.

I am not even sure why he wants all this crap for dropping them eggs. It seems like it would only make it easier for others.

BigB, shutup, fly straight & CHECK 6!!!!!

Oh ya, on vulching runs don't forget to just slightly damage the planes so I can come in with the 20mm for the kill.

Offline ccvi

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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2002, 12:48:31 PM »
This thread is boring.

Let me suggest the following: Add a split screen option, so you can see both the pilots (including instruments) AND the bombardiers view at the same time.

That would match the real live setup considereing there were two to do the job.

Offline BGBMAW

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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2002, 07:39:13 PM »
Golly-gee..som u guys are stupid.........

CCVI...if its boring dont respond to it... dum asses..but ill do my best...

What im stating is we need a CALibrated airspeed meter..and a current airspeed meter....SIde by side...

Sure in the hell not no split screen...arghhh


Beat it if this is "boring"



Love BiGB
xoxo



Asholes

no t  all of u ..just some


P.S.  BiG Guns....U are only allowed in a Spit1 with 8 303's...and u are only to remove the nmes Ailerons..both sides...Then is when i come down and fifnsh it..:)

Offline ccvi

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« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2002, 12:36:26 PM »
I didn't say the request for such a gauge was boring.

Only that continuous
Soda: NOO! Don't do it.
Someone else: YES!! Do it!
Soda: Never, it sucks.
Someone else: Noo, it's historical.
...

THAT's boring.

Offline BGBMAW

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« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2002, 01:12:22 PM »
lolo ccvi...Yes you can say boring..thts the nicer thing to say..:)

Love BiGB

Offline MachNix

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« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2002, 07:02:57 PM »
I would like to see speed readouts for the simple fact that bomb accuracy is more dependent on speed then altitude.  For example, you are bombing from 15,000 feet AGL and calibrate your speed to 200 mph.  If your speed increase by 2 mph by the time you reach your release point, the bomb will hit 89 feet beyond your aim point.  If you where able to hold 200 mph, you would have to climb 300 feet higher to cause the bomb to hit 89 feet beyond your aim point.  It is a lot easier to see a 300-foot difference on the altimeter than a 2 mph difference on the ASI.  Therefore, speed readouts would be more helpful then the altitude readouts for bombing accuracy.

It is easy to set the autopilot, easy to click the map to get target altitude, takes a little skill to do the speed calibration accurately, and then it takes a miracle to be at the correct speed using the ASI at the release point in order to take down a hanger.  It still may take something of a miracle even with speed readouts to be on-speed at the release point, but the readouts would give you a chance to guess how long or short your bombs will be.

It is harder to get to the targets in a bomber than in a JABO -- the rewards should be greater when you do.

I don't really have to curse to be heard in this post, do I?

Offline BGBMAW

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« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2002, 08:33:11 PM »
diddly yes



ollolol


no Mach..i just get iritated over statment sthat have no diddlying bearing on what i started this post about:)


but ...u and I are on same page...:)


love BiGB
xoxo


Do u think HTC sees this...ohh Please add a calbratoion speed meter in bomer view..along with ur current airspeed...