Re: hostages in Moscow...

[wulfie]

...first off - Boroda, Soviet, all you Russians - don't be deceived. Just because Barbara Streisand, most of 'hollywood', and a few Americans with a high media profile cannot call a terrorist a terrorist does not mean that there aren't alot of Americans who consider certain armed Chechens to be terrorists.

I could understand their drive for independence. When they began resorting to terrorism I ceased caring about the validity of their claims - that was several years ago.

I've seen several comments on various BBS that basically stated 'The Russians can go f*ck themselves they will get U.S. support when they support us on invading Iraq'.

Statements like this are very uninformed. Actions in the U.N. can rarely be trusted to illustrate the actual relations between 2 Nations. Russia has been one of the greatest Allies the U.S. has had since 9/11/01. Unlike many Nations with a far less combative history as far as relations with the U.S. go, Russia pledged to support the U.S. on 9/11/01 and they have been great friends in a tough time.

It doesn't make the U.S. media, mainly because the involved parties don't feel it necessary to inform the Russian media to score 'good guy points', but to put it very generally alot of Al-Qaeda operatives have been aprehended by the Russians. No small number of these operatives were caught in/around the Chechen province. They have provided very valuable intelligence to everyone who is at war with terrorists.

And when Boroda, Soviet, and others who 'live near the problem' give you information that doesn't mesh with CNN - they are spot on. True to form with the reporting of anti-semetic terrorism by the major U.S. media groups, the vast majority of attrocities commited by terrorists in/around Chechnya (I didn't say 'Chechen terrorists' because alot of them aren't Chechen, alot of them are muslim but not all are, so you can't describe the group accurately with 1 or 2 words) have received almost zero coverage in the West.

People talk about videotaped torture and assassination commited by these terrorists - there's 2 or 3 examples on the internet. There's hundreds of examples that have been accquired by 'the good guys' - very brutal stuff. Your opinion would change on a dime if 50% (as opposed to the current 2%) of what is going on over there was reported worldwide.

Here's a fairly 'sterile' example - one 'Chechen warlord' was under contract from Al-Qaeda: $50,000 U.S. per videotaped execution by beheading of any 'Western citizen'. Said 'warlord' ('terrorlord' may be a better term) finally attracted too much attention from the wrong people when he taped the execution of a British citizen. He (the 'warlord') was gone within 3 weeks. The Russians reported he would no longer be a problem. I don't know what finally happened to the guy. As long as he talked a little before he stopped breathing I can't say I really care what happened to him.

So put in a good wish for the Russians. Without a doubt they have attracted some terrorist heat due to their support of the U.S., the U.K., and the West in general.

And to Boroda, Soviet, etc. - all you Russian guys - you aren't alone. Without going into too much detail I can gurantee that if your military asks for high quality help they'll get it - they've asked before during the past couple of years and they've never been let down.

Generate some good karma for the assault team tasked with taking down that theater. They are going to need some. The 'A team' of Al-Qaeda had alot of Chechens among its' ranks, and I've heard guys who had to fight them recently call them 'the most worthy foe since WW2'. People who 'know their stuff', have no morals, and have no fear of dying can be very dangerous foes.

Mike/wulfie

[fd ski]

great post wulfie !!!

Salute

[Soviet]

Sorry about my comments before about Grozny and stuff, that seemed a bit nazist.  I don't live in Russia but i have very close ties to relatives there and i'm 50% Russian.  It hurts me a lot everytime one of these things happens.

[funkedup]

I dunno if we should help our Russian friends.  We all know Islam is a religion of peace.  I'm sure it's all a big misunderstanding and they will release the hostages soon.

[wulfie]

You're probably correct FunkedUp. A religion of peace and Brady didn't fumble you see there was this 'tuck' rule and (Sam Kinison mode = ON) OH COME ON YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME NOT A FUMBLE WHO IN THEIR RIGHT F*CKING MIND WOULD THINK AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.



(Sam Kinison mode = off)

Actually, in all seriousness, if you looked worldwide at every 'Muslim'...well, most of the are too busy looking for safe drinking water to worry about learning how to make a bomb or shoot a rifle.

It's the same with every group, cause, atrocity, war, whatever. The worst 5%, or 2%, or <1% (in the case of Muslims) is on some f*cked up mission that is somehow more important than keeping little kids from getting blown to pieces and the rest of the world has to deal with them and miss alot of soccer/football/hockey matches and attendant parties to gain 6 months of 'amazinhunk free time' before the next crisis erupts.

Some guys argue that the writings of Islam are inherently 'aggressive'. True, but how many practicioners of a given faith actually follow every word of the writings to the letter. It generally comes down to:

Q: "Why did my Wife/Husband/Father/Mother/Child have to die from a sniper/an errant bomb/cholera/starvation/cancer/etc.".

A (from 'applicable prophet'): "It was the will of God/Allah/Yaweh/etc. They are in a better place now. You will be with them again when it's your turn to get hosed".

At least that's how I've seen it worldwide. Anyone who tries to make it any more than that ("You have to convert them to save them from hell! If they die at your hand because they refuse conversion, that's better than them worshipping the Orchid Goddess and dying of natural causes - really!") usually ends up screwing over people who have it tough enough as it is. Like the man said..."Strictly speaking, more innocent souls have suffered more injustice 'in the name of god' than everyone ever sacrificed to someone else's devil".

Mike/wulfie

[Dnil]

OMG, I bout wet myself wulfie....."your turn to get hosed"....too good my friend, too good.

[mauser]

Thanks for the post wulfie...

Hoping the Russian counter-terror teams are trained up... if not I hope Putin asks for help.  

mauser

[fd ski]

from http://english.pravda.ru
( what a blast from the past newspaper !! !:) ) Boroda, please recommend english web newspapers in russia !!!

“One has to identify the organizers of this monstrous act of terrorism, not only the nephew of Arbi Barayev, the Chechen commander who was killed last year, but also other terrorists who are currently inside the building. After it becomes known what villages they come from, we need to send special units of the Central Intelligence Department. They round up 700 people from those village and from other villages as well. Two or three villages will be enough to collect 700 people. These people will be elders, relatives, neighbors, and everyone who is close and precious to the terrorists. Then, we will put all those people in a line in front of the theater. We will then negotiate. If they shoot a hostage, we will shoot a relative. This will be an exchange as well: one to one. We will exchange the hostages for the terrorists’ relatives, not deputies.

I'm starting to agree with the guy...

[miko2d]

How many terrorists have they identified so far?

 miko

[fd ski]

not sure miko, but it shouldn't be too hard.

Here is an interesting tidbit:

Saddam Hussein: Free the hostages



His Excellency President Saddam Hussein of Iraq has urged the Chechen terrorists holding 700 hostages in a Moscow theatre to release their prisoners.

President Saddam Hussein claimed that “the true enemies of the Moslems” are the USA and Israel, not Russia. “Listen to the voice of Baghdad and if you are convinced, do what you should do (free the hostages and do not harm them)” said the Iraqi President on a televised message on Iraqi TV tonight.

He added that “Islam is a humanistic doctrine and not a fanatical one” and warned the Chechen terrorists that fundamentalist religious tendencies would deprive the Moslems of the sympathy of the Russians and the other countries of the world.

“This is Baghdad’s message. Zionism and the USA are the oppressors, not Russia, China and India”, continued the message.

[OIO]

translation: You morons you getting more on THEIR side to come and kick OUR ass.

The one thing I always admired from the soviets has been the way they respond to threats. Effective and final. That warlord was probable executed and done with. If it was the US he wouldve been paraded through the media, wouldve cost thousands of thousands of dollars in some kind of trial, then more months of international debate & criticism..then either given some kind of life sentence or deported to some foreign nation in the "interest of friendly relations"

(aka, like the guantanamo prisioners).

And im one of those that believes that using violence against innocents for some ideological or political reason is a terrorrist, plain and simple. That includes the IRA, the FARC/ELN, Alqueda&groupie organizations, these chechen morons, etc etc. The UN should cut no slack whatsoever, make no deals, ask for no favors.

But thats the problem. The UN. *sigh*

[sshh]

fd ski  http://www.rbcnews.com/ has pretty frequent updates on that situation. English translated version lags a lot though.

Some stories here http://gazeta.ru/english/