the kate

[brady]

Staga, the Jill would fit the curent plane set best.

[Mitsu]

I totally agree Pyro's plane set.
Kate is very nice for first Japanese carrier-based bomber.

If B7A2 Ryusei is released first, everybody won't ride B5N2 even if it's out.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Karnak


Bull.

That is precisely the kind of BS Allied blindness that I am talking about.

We got a SBD-5, which is a 1943 version of the SBD that is 40mph faster than the SBD-2 and SBD-3 that fought the Battle of Midway.  Checking my sources I find that not only did we not get an "Early" SBD, there is hardly a later version of the SBD than the one we got.

In counter balance to this we got the 1937 D3A1, not the greater production D3A2 from 1942 (post-Midway) that is, like the SBD-5, 40mph faster than its Midway kin.

Now we get the B5N1 from 1938 to counter not the TBF Devastator that was its contempoary, but rather the TMB-3 which had only just begun to trickle to combat units at the time of Midway.

When the counterparts are always selected in such a way, intentional or not, as to maximize the USN's advantage we will see all Pacific Theatre setups die on the vine as nobody will volunteer to be one of the few sacrifical lambs who are there only to fulfill the fantasies of the Allied fliers who imagine themselves in a Marianas Turkey shoot.

I will never fly the B5N1.  I have no wish to participate only so that I enhance somebody else's fun.  As an example, one VF-27 pilot already exclaimed how much fun it was going to be to shoot Kates down.

You Allied fliers had best start thinking about balance if you actually want any opponents to show up.  You're lobby far, far outguns ours, but soon our wallets will do our speaking as we simply leave.

A couple of points:

SBD: It seems that hairs are being split here. HTC’s modeling of the SBD-5 gives a maximum speed of about 260 mph. This is backed up by Navy data, which you can find here: SBD-5

Furthermore, it is limited to the same bomb load as the SBD-2/3, not the full loading the –5 was capable of. Indeed, later in the war, the SBD-5 was fitted with rocket launching rails allowing it to carry 8 five inch HVARs. I'd sure like that option here! So, as it's currently modeled, it seems to me that this is close enough for scenarios.

Torpedo bombers are another issue. Yes, we need the TBD. However, the TBF-1 did participate at Midway, and did no better than the old Devastator. Moreover, the TBM-3 is actually slower than the TBF-1. Likewise, the B-26A was also employed at Midway. We don’t have the Brewster F2A-3, and that would be a nice addition (preferably an export model Buffalo for its use in other scenarios).

Another point. By 1943, the SBD was being phased out of service with the USN in favor of the SB2C Helldiver.

Let's not get too myopic on these issues.

My regards,

Widewing

[Turbot]

Obviously this was not a plane designed for the main arena (without question the majority of HTC business).  Certainly HTC isn't spending a majority of their time making things for a small minority of players.  I am sure much more interesting planes are on the way and this was just something that was ready to show.

[jordi]

Originally posted by Turbot
Obviously this was not a plane designed for the main arena (without question the majority of HTC business).  Certainly HTC isn't spending a majority of their time making things for a small minority of players.  I am sure much more interesting planes are on the way and this was just something that was ready to show.

I wonder what the ratio of players in the Main Arena will be compared to those in the Special Events Arena come Frame Day ?

With 400+ registered even if just 75% show up I bet there are more in the SE than in the MA.

So I would not call Scenario pilots a "Smal Minority"

[brady]

Special event's are a Huge draw, and they are well done.

 From above:

 
Politics, the fleshing out of the Pearl harbor plane set is good for the CM's, we all saw Tora Tora Tora, and Ben was just so cute in the pos movie Pearl harbor, the setting is a popular one, and those three planes the Val the Kate and the A6M2 were the primary tools with which the Japanese Navy wreaked it's destruction in the early part of the war in the Pac.

Pyro: In his defense he was damned no mater what plane he chose for Japan, that is If he only chose one to add this patch, their may be more. He did do somthing by chusing this plane he filled the Early war Japanese CV planeset, and made it possable for the CM's to do a number of events that represent with far more imershion battles that are very prevelent in the American psychie.

 Ultimately what is good for the CM's is good for all who attend special events, and they have a very good attandance.

[Turbot]

Originally posted by jordi
So I would not call Scenario pilots a "Smal Minority"

I didn't.    

Without question the 24/7 MA is the prime business (read: what pays the bills) of AH.   Events run a few hours here and there.  CT is an oddity a couple of dozen players fool with.  I worded the orginal in a way to confuse some people, but in terms of time and use - MA dwarfs them all.  

I am sure a great deal more significant and interesting things are on the way.  HTC knows where the money comes from.

[brady]

I took the Liberty of quoting, oboe, fromanother thread on this topic:

 You can't argue with the fact that the Japanese are being given apparently the earliest possible model of attack planes while the U.S. forces are being given much later-war models. WTH? What conclusions are we supposed to draw from that?

I know you Allied flyers don't pick which models are introduced, and I'm sure you're happy with what you get. But believe me, it would be in your best long term interest to also encourage HTC to give the Japanese flyers better equipment and choices in the game, because frankly its pretty discouraging. You guys could end up with no dedicated opposition in the PTO.

Good grief, the LW is so far developed they're down to getting the Me163 rocket plane, and the IJAAF is STILL without its best fighter of the war.



  I think that sums it up prety good.

  Turbot, is of course corect, and it is the excepetion that a plane like the kate be introduced, one who has no late war varient, most early war planes we get are ones who have a late or later war model that can be done at the same time, thier are some exceptions to this rule going both ways of course.

[Turbot]

stuff to fix your signature Jordi



Mike "DmdJordi" Bowman
Scenario CM Staff

To Join the AH Special Events Email list

For more information about this list

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when you do a "quote" you will see the code you can cut and paste.

[jordi]

Originally posted by Turbot
stuff to fix your signature Jordi



Mike "DmdJordi" Bowman
Scenario CM Staff

To Join the AH Special Events Email list

For more information about this list

AH Events Calendar



when you do a "quote" you will see the code you can cut and paste.

I am lost - you want me to QUOTE my signature text like you do yours ?

Jordi

[brady]

I think he means if you hit the quote function, the method to input the code into your signature, will be handed to you, so you can make those links work like he has them above, prety slick, realy nice looking, and a nice jestor Turbot.

[jordi]

I see.

Thanks,

[Joker312]

Brady,

   I didnt mean to seem like I took your remarks personal. I am in full agreement that we need the Judy, Oscar, Jack, and Betty to be able to run some really accurate Snapshots, TOD's, Scenerios, ect.

   What I am trying to say is that with every plane addition by HTC we get closer to where we all want to be. There are so many marks of some of these planes that it would be crazy to expect HTC to model them all. So we make do with an F4F-4 instead of an F4F-3. Same goes for the SBD, Kate, Val, ect.

   We also have different sources for our info and those performance numbers are very suspect. For instance most speeds quoted in publications for WW2 aircraft were attained in unloaded, new, tweeked planes right off the assembly lines. In most case the planes in the field had no chance to duplicate those results. I have seen the the sustained turn rate of the F4U-1 differ by as much as 2.5 degrees a second at a given altitude.

   The bottom line is we will never have or know the true performance of these aircraft but we do have types that squared off against each other. Learn the planes capibilities and you can have some fun fighting it in the MA, SEA, CT, It matters little if your Val is a -2 or a -1.

  Just my opinion, all.

[oboe]

Joker.    I beg to differ with your last statement though -
sometimes there are pretty significant differences between marks of an A/C.    Note the ordnance difference between the B5N1 and B5N2:

Originally posted by Karnak


B5N2.  It could carry an 800kg bomb or three 250kg bombs.

From the screenies shown we're getting a B5N1 which can carry two 250kg bombs.

They could both carry a torpedo.

The B5N1 entered service in 1938.
The B5N2 entered service in 1939.

That's an extra 500 lbs of HE per plane, or the choice to trade it all for an 1600lb blockbuster.    I do hope we get the B5N2 and not the B5N1.

[Wanker]

Originally posted by -ammo-
I am pretty sure that one of the main reasons they modeled a B5N is because it was a priority on the CM list of needed AC. I am not saying I know why HTC came to that decision, but I know that the Kate was identified by the CM group as a need, that is all I am saying with that statement.  I believe it fills a needed whole for early pacific battles.  I am glad they modeled it.

Well, not completely true, Ammo. There was some disagreement on the CM staff about whether to ask for the B5N or the B6N. Myself and a few others were lobbying for the B6N, so it would be a more accurate foil for the TBM. Keep in mind, also, that we are planning our scenarios out about a year in advance now, so we have a huge list of aircraft and vehicles we need to keep producing new scenarios. We don't have the luxury of asking for a B5N and a B6N when we don't even have say, a Stuka yet. So we basically ask for planes to fill huge holes....like a Japanese torpedo bomber, a Russian level bomber, etc...

Also keep in mind that while Pyro tries to balance planesets between what the CM's want and what would be good for the CT and the MA....he always produces what he wants to produce given his own logic and perspective.

I have never seen any call for either of those aircraft from the CMs, or anybody else. Everybody seems quite content to allow the Allies to sub in the TBM-3 and SBD-5 instead. Yet when an equivilent subbing is suggested for the Japanese by adding the B6N2 we get a whole load of crap about it not being the right aircraft.

Karnak, that's because you don't have access rights to the CM forum! We argue about planes and vehicles all the time. As I said before to Ammo, it's not that we wouldn't ask for a SBD-2 or a TBD Devastator. It's just that we need certain plane types to fill out holes to allow certain events to be held. So, while we would certainly prefer to see the TBD Devastator in AH, our lists of priorities dictates that we end up putting that on the lower end of the priority scale, and instead asking for things like a Russian level bomber, the Stuka...etc.

There is certainly not a "pro-US" bias on the CM team. You'll notice that the Japanese level bomber produced by HTC was the Ki-67 Peggy, not the slow, vulnerable G4M Betty. We lobbied Pyro to give us a good, late war Japanese bomber that would be more survivable than the Betty.

BTW, I'll be flying in my very first AH scenario on Saturday, having been a CM for every previous one. I'll be flying the Val and I will be sinking those Yankee dog American carriers! Banzai!