Ver Haff All Zee Bombers Gone?

[MachNix]

On Puck's observation of killing one B-17 and getting the second free: What happens is when the first bomber dies, the second bomber jumps forward into the same space filled by the first bomber and starts taking hits.  You don't have to adjust you aim to hit the second bomber if you get an instant kill (explosion) on the first bomber.  You may be able to get all three bombers this way.

I agree with Puck that we need targets worthy of bombing.  Don't want to see them decrease the effectiveness of the JABO or perk bombs or make targets harder to make the bomber more important - just make more targets.  Currently, a single, fully loaded, P-47 has more than enough firepower to knock a town down.  Instead of robbing the 47 of its ability to (or fun in) destroy a building, just make the towns with more buildings then a single P-47 can destroy.  Apparently, according to muckmaw, HTC is in the process of doing this with field towns.  I would also like to see this done with the fields.  For example, have 3 FH clustered together in a group and have several widely spaced groups on a field.  Now, if this causes a big hit in frame rate like Wotan suggests, go ahead and make the targets harder; but also make them bigger so we can get more bombs on them with the delay set at 0.05 - would like to be able to destroy a harden target with a single pass of the bomber.  (I don't even want to get started here on salvo vs. ripple modes of bombing.)

It is interesting to note that these same discussions over Bomber vs. JABO have been going on since the airplane was first conceived as a weapon.  What would the outcome of WWII have been if, instead of a thousand plane bomber raid on a strategic target, there where 10 thousand JABOs?  The outcome would not have been as good as the fighter advocates might think.  The aspect of the bomber that was important in WWII was its range.  Fighters couldn't even reach the strategic targets.  So even if a whole group of bombers could only manage to get a single 500 ponder on the target, it was 500 lbs more than the entire fighter force could do.  Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, range is not a factor in AH and thus negating an import aspect of the bomber.  The only thing that is important in AH is the ability to inflect damage.  As muckmaw pointed out in his list of bomber problems, that advantage to do that damage currently goes to the JABOs.

[lazs2]

I don't collect la7 scalps so much but... there are a lot of em out there.    The 51, d9 and are amoung the most timid planes in the game and very fast.   the la is very fast too but...

The la can't snapshoot and.... it accelerates and climbs very well.  The La needs to saddle up to get a kill.   Most of my assists are on 51's and D9's who take the snapshot at very high speed with little change in direction.... I have a very small window after the overshoot to get a shot in.... The lag will stay low because he can turn a little and relies on his monster acceleration and climb.

most underestimate the the climb, smash, dive and snapshot abilities of the FM2.  like the -1a.... it is like cheating to fly one... otherwise I couldn't do it.
lazs

[fd ski]

Originally posted by lazs2
Perk every bomb over 250 lbs for single engine fitghters... no perk points if you don't survive the sortie and you will see more big fluffs.
lazs

Now there is an awsome idea !!!!

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by Nifty
Make the towns larger, more spread out and impervious to gunfire under 30mm calibre.  Buff formations with smaller eggs and larger delays on their drop can then carpet bomb the town getting much better results than a Jabo fighter.  It's gamey, but the whole concept of town destruction, put 10 troops in the map room for capture is gamey to begin with.  

I agree.
...

[J_A_B]

"Make the towns larger, more spread out and impervious to gunfire under 30mm calibre. Buff formations with smaller eggs and larger delays on their drop can then carpet bomb the town getting much better results than a Jabo fighter. "

And impervious to Osties too!!!


J_A_B

[Nash]

I don't mind perks for keeping the numbers down on some of the better planes... but...

I shudder at the idea of turnin' the hanger visit into some old-school Wheel of Fortune shopping spree every time I wanna load out my plane.

"Yes, Pat, I'll take the 250's for 3 and gimme a couple of 1000's for 10".

"Excellent choice Nash, and of course you landed on the bonus, which means we'll be attaching these exquisite items onto your BRAND NEW TEMPEST!"

I hate shopping... and I hate looking at my bank statements for that matter. I'd rather not think about this stuff when I play AH. Just make bombs and hardness realistic if ya wanna fix the problem.

[mjolnir]

They still don't solve the problem if the buildings are still made of paper mache.  A 110G2 or P47 with all the guns will still be able to take down most, if not all, of the town without even using their ordinance.  The only thing that bullets should damage on the ground are ack and fuel tanks, and maybe radar.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by mjolnir
They still don't solve the problem if the buildings are still made of paper mache.  A 110G2 or P47 with all the guns will still be able to take down most, if not all, of the town without even using their ordinance.  

...and a Panzer cannot.

[AtmkRstr]

I'd like to see more tactical bombing.
i.e. med bombers bombing airfields and towns from med alts.

B17s and Lancs shouldn't be seen doing that stuff. They're for strategic bombing (cities, factories HQ)

HTC should somhow encourage these bombers to play these roles, and encourage more people to fly bombers in the first place. How? I dunno. I pay them to figure this stuff out, but they could start by rewritting the damage model.

[Easyscor]

With dweebs flying Jabo Lancaster formations at 2K above an airfield to kill FHs, what do you think will happen when the towns get bigger with harder sturctures?

I can see the text in channel 2 now;

"Somebody up some lancs and jabo the town at A11"

Come on, you can't see that comming?  Great for furballers I guess.

Bigger strat targets like Cities which change the win conditions are what's needed:

5 Cities less than 20%, 6 Airfields left, The war has been won.

Fun for the bombers and fun for the guys who like to join Hazed fighter sweep missions.

[eskimo2]

Lots of good ideas in this thread so far.  I especially like the concept of making buildings less susceptible to damage by gunfire.  I can’t say that I agree that they should be “impervious” to even 50 caliber fire, but it should be GREATLY reduced.  Perhaps a single .50 round should be reduced down to ¼ (or so) of a pound of explosives.  It would then take about 1,000 50 cal hits to down a city or town building.  Sounds realistic to me.

(A jug driver with perfect aim would only be able to kill 3 buildings.)

eskimo

[GScholz]

Originally posted by eskimo2
Lots of good ideas in this thread so far.  I especially like the concept of making buildings less susceptible to damage by gunfire.  I can’t say that I agree that they should be “impervious” to even 50 caliber fire, but it should be GREATLY reduced.  Perhaps a single .50 round should be reduced down to ¼ (or so) of a pound of explosives.  It would then take about 1,000 50 cal hits to down a city or town building.  Sounds realistic to me.

(A jug driver with perfect aim would only be able to kill 3 buildings.)

eskimo

Eh... realistic? 1000 .50 rounds destroy a building? I'll tell you one thing Eskimo2, I've served in Bosnia and I know from personal experience that the M2HB, even with MP2 ammo, is only good for two things: maiming infantry and punching small holes in light armor. Realistically it would take hundreds of thousands .50 caliber rounds to destroy a single one-story house. If it was so powerful as you think, I don't understand why tanks need main guns.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by mjolnir
They still don't solve the problem if the buildings are still made of paper mache.  A 110G2 or P47 with all the guns will still be able to take down most, if not all, of the town without even using their ordinance.  The only thing that bullets should damage on the ground are ack and fuel tanks, and maybe radar.

Right on the money!

[AtmkRstr]

Tour 2 – 8.6%
Tour 8 – 11.9%
Tour 14 – 10.4%
Tour 20 – 8.8%
Tour 26 – 8.3%
Tour 32 – 3.7%  (11.0% Divided by 3 because of formations)

This isn't exactly accurate because of confoundment with C47s and naval bombers, but that 3.7% is quite shocking none the less.

[Turbot]

Originally posted by Sandman_SBM


...and a Panzer cannot.

True True.  75HE is rather weak or we have some damn strong town buildings.