Bring the Ki.84-I Hayate "Frank" to Aces High

[C_R_Caldwell]

Originally posted by Mitsu
Pyro would say "A new Ki is coming..." in next news.
It is just excited news, isn't it!?

If you are correct it's VERY exciting, Mitsu. I don't think you should get your hopes up about the AH Ki-84 being modelled with the same performance data as the US-tested example which you have provided data for. That Ki-84 was ,amongst other things, fuelled with high octane US avgas.

It certainly gave a tantalising example of how the Hayate could have performed had the Japanese had Western quality components & manufacturing abilities and high grade fuel available to them during the Ki 84's service.

My guess is that when the Hayate reaches us, it will not perform anywhere near as well as your performance chart suggests...

[GRUNHERZ]

"Italian a/c just aren't "sexy" to most casual WW2 aviation buffs, a group which AH seems to be increasingly aiming for..."

And all these "casual" fans are drawn to the VERY famous La7 and the VERY famous N1K2J....  If it fights good enough  they will fly it.

[easymo]

a number of veriations of the KI-84 where built.  I hope they put as many in, as they have spits.  And the icons are just as uninformative as the spits, 109's, so forth.

[Pongo]

Originally posted by C_R_Caldwell
I think pigs will fly before we get an Re.2005. Perhaps they'll only need to glide before we can get a G.55.  I'm not expecting either to ever make the AH planeset. The G.55 certainly deserves to,  but fat chance for it to ever get there. Italian a/c just aren't "sexy" to most casual WW2 aviation buffs, a group which AH seems to be increasingly aiming for...

It never occured to me that being interested in italian AC makes you a member of the elite of gaming..

Ill have to reconsider my opinion of them I suppose if I want to be cool.

[Trip01]

In AW, the frank was my favourite plane. It climbed poorly, wouldnt dive without locking up, but it was faster than a pony under 7k and turned better than a spit 9. Sometime around '96 they changed it and the ammo load went down to something like 25%. Later they put it back.

What it lost on the spit was E retention, but it made up for that slightly with four flap setting which were useful in combat, unlike the spit.

I would love to see the Frank in AH.

But before that we need early war german bombers so we dont have to face late-war ju88s at the next battle of britain

Trip

[Kaz]

Was doing some reasearch, found a site with WW2 planes and some descriptions on # produced, effectiveness, etc. anyways here's the link

http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/Hayate.htm

From the above site ^

"Forget it - it's a Frank." It is said that this comment was made frequently by USAAF personnel watching radar screens on Okinawa in the closing weeks of the Pacific War.

[easymo]

But when the blip was moving so fast that it was inferred to be one of the advanced new Japanese Hayate fighters it would be assumed that the P-51s would stand no chance of catching the intruder.

You should finish the paragraph.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by C_R_Caldwell
I think pigs will fly before we get an Re.2005. Perhaps they'll only need to glide before we can get a G.55.  I'm not expecting either to ever make the AH planeset. The G.55 certainly deserves to,  but fat chance for it to ever get there. Italian a/c just aren't "sexy" to most casual WW2 aviation buffs, a group which AH seems to be increasingly aiming for...

And liking the G.55 and Re.2005 makes you a serious aviation fan?  Funny that you picked the two sexiest Italian birds.

The Italian aircraft we most need, for scenario purposes, are these:

C.R.42
C.200
Cant Z.1007 or Savoia-Marchetti S.M.79-II
G.50bis
Re.2000

Those made up the bulk of the Italian fighting force in the air.  Tell me you like those and want those over such sexy aircraft as the G.55 and Re.2005 and then I'll think you might be a little serious.  But in asking for the G.55 and Re.2005 you are at least as guilty of focusing on the sexy aircraft as those you accuse are, probably more so due to the lack of importance of the G.55 and Re.2005 when compared with the Ki.84.

Easymo,

There were only really two versions of the Ki.84 built.  The -Ia and the -Ib.  Nearly 500 of them were the -Ib with four Ho-5 20mm cannon, the rest being -Ias with two Ho-5 20mm cannon and two Ho-103 12.7mm machine guns.

There were a few different engines used, but for the most part gave similar performance.  The engines could pretty much be grouped into two categories for performance purposes, the Ha-45-21 for the high performance examples and all other engines for the lower performance examples.

Japanese fuel in an Ha-45-21 powered Ki.84-I might give a top speed of over 400mph, maybe over 410mph.  The others pretty much hit around the classic 392mph figure.  According to Mitsu the Ha-45-21 was the most common engine in the Ki.84-I.

[C_R_Caldwell]

Originally posted by Pongo
It never occured to me that being interested in italian AC makes you a member of the elite of gaming..

Ill have to reconsider my opinion of them I suppose if I want to be cool.

I must be using invisible ink because I'm pretty sure that I didn't mention anything about being in an elite club just because someone likes Italian a/c.

My point was that most people don't necessarily own several books on WW2 aviation or are as hard-core in their interest as many of the ppl who frequent this BBS. They are interested in the a/c that everyone has heard of - the Spit, 109, Pony, Jug, Zero et al.  How many WW2 sims made in the last 10 years actually included Italian a/c? Not damn many, that's for sure. Heck, we have AH and WB3, but how many boxed WW2 sims have included Italian a/c in their planeset?

It's not that I don't think that that The G.55 or Re.2005 wouldn't be popular if they were introduced to AH. Quite the opposite in fact. It's just that developers assume that since the casual gamer doesn't usually know much re: Italian aviation there isn't a market there. Why do you think boxed WW2 sims seem to always be based in the ETO? Occasionally they'll be based in the PTO, but on their next iteration they'll be back to the ETO. In fact, Soviet WW2 a/c were generally treated with disinterest with developers, but IL-2 showed the market what a well made sim set outside of N/W Europe or the Pacific could do.

It's not the casual gamer that wouldn't be interested in Italian a/c, but it's the developers who seem to think that casual gamers (who make up the majority of the market) aren't interested. More often than not it seems the developers are the ones who assume that their customers aren't interested in Italian a/c. I'm sure that more Italian a/c in AH would be accepted enthusiastically by casual gamers. My point is that they probably won't get the chance...

[Urchin]

I think the Re 2005 and the G. 55 would both be very popular, if they perform on par or better than the La-7 and P-51.  They might take some time to catch on, but 99.5% of the people in the MA fly 'their plane' because of the performance, not because they have any kind of interest in any particular plane outside of AH.

[C_R_Caldwell]

Originally posted by Karnak
And liking the G.55 and Re.2005 makes you a serious aviation fan?  Funny that you picked the two sexiest Italian birds.

The Italian aircraft we most need, for scenario purposes, are these:

C.R.42
C.200
Cant Z.1007 or Savoia-Marchetti S.M.79-II
G.50bis
Re.2000

Aw gawd, here we go AGAIN. Karn, ease up on the java and start drinking decaf.  Read my reply to Pongo as it seems it also applies to you.

As far as the 2005 and G.55, I picked them purposely because they are the 2 sexiest Italian birds and I therefore thought they may have the best chance of getting into AH which has a planeset heavily weighted in favour of 1943-45 a/c. If I thought at any time there was a snow-ball's chance in Hades of getting 3 or 4 more Italian a/c, I'd personally choose the following before the Centauro and Sagittario (in order of preference):

SM.79 (like you I'd prefer the Serie II)
C.200 (Serie VII or even a late Serie XX-XXII)
G.50bis
Z.1007bis

I know it would be more historically correct to include the CR.42 1st as you did, but I'd only pick the CR.42 if we had the Gloster Gladiator in the AH planeset. Flying those 2 birds against each other would be a real treat. As always, even in historical scenarios, you have to have some balance, and the CR.42 just wouldn't cut the mustard in AH on its own (yes I know, they didn't cut the mustard in real life either), though a good CR.42 pilot could definitely bring down a Hurri I flown by an average pilot. Having the CR.42 *and* the Gladiator OTH would bring some balance, even if the 2 may have not fought each other in significant numbers.

I was *not* trying to demarcate "casual" and "elite" players on the basis of whether they think Italian a/c are sexy or not. My point is that for some bizarre reason, developers either don't seem that interested in them, or they (wrongly) assume that since the casual gamer may not know that much about them, they wouldn't be interested. Soviet a/c were treated in much the same way by developers, yet IL-2 showed the market just how incorrect that assumption is.

Personally, I think that in early war scenarios, the C.200 would be more than a match for the Hurri Mk.I and when you compare early Brit & French light/medium bombers like the Blenheim to the SM.79 (even the Serie I) you see how competitive some of the early Italian hardware was.

I have no doubt that more Italian a/c would be enthusisatically received by AH players, be they casual or hard-core. My problem is that I have a feeling that we won't even get the chance. Their introduction in AH would certainly be going against the "sim tide", so to speak. That said, having low expectations means there's less chance of suffering disappointment.

Next time you receive subliminal messages from me regarding my "eliteness" plz disregard them as erroneous static...

[easymo]

And then there was the KI-84 thread.

[Pongo]

"The G.55 certainly deserves to, but fat chance for it to ever get there. Italian a/c just aren't "sexy" to most casual WW2 aviation buffs, a group which AH seems to be increasingly aiming for..."


it speaks for itself.

[C_R_Caldwell]

Originally posted by Karnak
But in asking for the G.55 and Re.2005 you are at least as guilty of focusing on the sexy aircraft as those you accuse are, probably more so due to the lack of importance of the G.55 and Re.2005 when compared with the Ki.84.

Again, my subliminal psychic emanations must be confusing the reader. Just where did I say that I thought the Re.2005 and G.55 were more worthy of inclusion than the Ki.84 ? Personally, I believe that the Ki.84 certainly deserves to be included in the AH planeset long before the 2 aforementioned "sexy" Italian birds. It was certainly far more important to the Japanese than the Centauro and Sagittario were to the Italians. However, whilst I personally think it should, just when did an a/c's historical worthiness feature in the decision as to whether to include it in AH?

If so, then there is one fighter that *might* deserve inclusion before the Ki.84 and it would be the Ki.43.This time I won't mention anything about "sexiness" or lack thereof re: the Hayabusa's inclusion (or lack thereof). I've learnt my lesson this time .

[Scott E]

it would be great to get all 3 armament variations included in the AH ki84

the 3 versions would not reqire 3d model variations only wieght and balance would be affected.


Armament:
(Ki-84-1a)
2 x 20mm Ho-5 cannon in wings, each with 150 rounds
2 x 12.7mm Type 103 machine-guns in upper fuselage, each with 350 rounds
(Ki-84-Ib)
4 x 20mm Ho-5 cannon (2 in wings, 2 in fuselage) each with 150 rounds
(Ki-84-Ic)
2 x 30 mm Ho-105 cannon in wings,  2 x 20 mm Ho-5 cannon in fuselage
(all models)
Two racks under outer wings for bombs or fuel tanks up to 250 kg (550 lbs) each