Author Topic: Gun owners and non-gun owners...  (Read 1683 times)

Offline Curval

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« Reply #135 on: November 04, 2002, 10:28:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Monk


Not at all, but do you really feel unsafe.


Fair question.  

To be honest I really didn't even think about it until I went to the Con.  If you check the second post in Ripsnort's thread about non-gun owners putting their money where their mouth is, you will see that I only started to feel a bit unsafe when I realised just how many guns were actually in circulation and the low cost that anyone can buy them for.  Then the sniper case in Washington added to my sense of insecurity.

One tid-bit I forgot to mention regarding the Con was 3 really bright sparks who had just bought rifles and were trying to re-pack them into the boxes.  It was quite comical.  I watched them struggle for about 10 minutes while in line at the gun range and it occurred to me that these "winners" were now in possession of deadly weapons.  :eek:

To answer your question, yes...I am starting to feel a bit unsafe in the US.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #136 on: November 04, 2002, 10:29:56 AM »
I don't really give a diddly whether you guys have got guns or not. But you're always lecturing non-Americans about the "freedoms" you have that we don't have, and yet when we try to exercise OUR freedoms, you get all pissy and jump all over us. I am exercising MY RIGHT to be appalled by the loss of life in the US - much of it caused by handguns. Usually, those killed are unknown to me. But it's still a hard thing to bear when I turn on the TV and find there's been another mass murder in the US by a crazed gunman, often claiming children as victims.

Sorry Lazs, but just as I will never convince you to give up your gun (were I to try, which I never have and never will) so you will never convince me of the validity of your opinion that more guns means more security, because it depends on two things - who they're aimed at, and whose finger is on the trigger.

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #137 on: November 04, 2002, 10:33:33 AM »
Wow beetle... I wonder if you were as appalled as when the gentleman started murdering grade school students in Denmark with a nife?  I don't suppose there are any mass murderers in England at all?  Yah... its all about the guns... not the inherant nature of people.

AKDejaVu

Offline Monk

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« Reply #138 on: November 04, 2002, 10:35:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval



  I watched them struggle for about 10 minutes while in line at the gun range and it occurred to me that these "winners" were now in possession of deadly weapons.  :eek:

 

LOL........seen that before.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #139 on: November 04, 2002, 10:36:39 AM »
This is what folks don't get......

When you are brought up to believe and understand the Constitution and the RIGHTS which it affords us, are raised from a youth to understand, respect and use firearms, hunt and/or target shoot with your Dad and friends as a youth, then owning a firearm is a non-issue in your life.

When others begin to tell you that because bad people are using firearms to kill innocents, or parents do not take ownership of a firearm seriously and a child is killed, that you and everyone else  should not be able to own a firearm, then I'm left with only one response......

Wake Up!!!

As to my foreign friends....as an American citizen, I'm at a loss as to why you believe your opinion would matter to me at all....don't like guns and believe they are the root of all evil? Then get off your collective ass's and do something about it in your own country!

When AMERICANS debate issues relative to AMERICA, I can at least respect their opinion as an AMERICAN. When others outside of our nation try to impose their will and stand in judgment over us, criticizing the United States, all the while taking foreign aid like a newborn on breast milk, well, just doesn't seem right.

Guess my bottom line is this....why don't those outside of our borders take care of their own problems and we will take care of ours.

Offline Monk

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« Reply #140 on: November 04, 2002, 10:37:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
often claiming children as victims.



That's a new sport here in Europe, and don't even need a gun.

Offline Monk

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« Reply #141 on: November 04, 2002, 10:40:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
This is what folks don't get......

When you are brought up to believe and understand the Constitution and the RIGHTS which it affords us, are raised from a youth to understand, respect and use firearms, hunt and/or target shoot with your Dad and friends as a youth, then owning a firearm is a non-issue in your life.





 
Excellent point.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #142 on: November 04, 2002, 10:47:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
As to my foreign friends....as an American citizen, I'm at a loss as to why you believe your opinion would matter to me at all....don't like guns and believe they are the root of all evil? Then get off your collective ass's and do something about it in your own country!

When AMERICANS debate issues relative to AMERICA, I can at least respect their opinion as an AMERICAN. When others outside of our nation try to impose their will and stand in judgment over us, criticizing the United States, all the while taking foreign aid like a newborn on breast milk, well, just doesn't seem right.

Guess my bottom line is this....why don't those outside of our borders take care of their own problems and we will take care of ours.


Rude..with all due respect Nash started this thread.  He is not American.  Are these boards American?  Yes the servers are located in the US, but given the international nature of the internet, and given the fact that we have an international selection of pilots here it is not surprising that non-Americans seek to make their opinions felt here.  Frankly I consider a person's thread much like an Embassy....and in this case you are on Canadian soil.  So, back off.:p

Where I come from we got off our collective tulips and banned guns in 1971/2.

Not one cent of foreign aid is paid here.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2002, 11:25:52 AM by Curval »
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #143 on: November 04, 2002, 11:01:22 AM »
Rude - just to present the other half -

When you are brought up to believe and understand the rule of law and one's own rights and responsibilities in a gun-free environment, then owning a firearm is a non-issue in your life.

As for the citizens' uprising in the event the government of the day tries to seize its citizens' weapons, oh puhleeeeze!  What is the likelihood of that? And how do you think you guys would organise your rebellion?  I think you'll find there's rather more to it than reaching for a rusting .38 in the glove compartment of the Pontiac Grand Am.  LOL!

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #144 on: November 04, 2002, 11:48:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
As for the citizens' uprising in the event the government of the day tries to seize its citizens' weapons, oh puhleeeeze!  What is the likelihood of that? And how do you think you guys would organise your rebellion?  I think you'll find there's rather more to it than reaching for a rusting .38 in the glove compartment of the Pontiac Grand Am.  LOL!
Dunno beetle... seems our country has already shown that we know what it takes.

AKDejaVu

Offline Rude

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« Reply #145 on: November 04, 2002, 12:50:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval


Rude..with all due respect Nash started this thread.  He is not American.  Are these boards American?  Yes the servers are located in the US, but given the international nature of the internet, and given the fact that we have an international selection of pilots here it is not surprising that non-Americans seek to make their opinions felt here.  Frankly I consider a person's thread much like an Embassy....and in this case you are on Canadian soil.  So, back off.:p

Where I come from we got off our collective tulips and banned guns in 1971/2.


Heyas Curval!:)

I'm happy for you and yours....would suck if someone had told you that you did not have the right to make that change eh? I would also believe that what works on a small island with a limited population might not apply in a larger model such as the US. BTW...do criminals use guns when committing crimes in your neck of the woods? Just curious, are your laws restricting citizens having guns stopping the bad guys from obtaining them?

As to those outside of the US border expressing themselves on this board, I never said they shouldn't be allowed to do it, just that I have a hard time respecting their opinions...I would never  tell them how to live their lives or act as if I understood their heritage, thats all.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #146 on: November 04, 2002, 01:04:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude


Heyas Curval!:)

I'm happy for you and yours....would suck if someone had told you that you did not have the right to make that change eh? I would also believe that what works on a small island with a limited population might not apply in a larger model such as the US. BTW...do criminals use guns when committing crimes in your neck of the woods? Just curious, are your laws restricting citizens having guns stopping the bad guys from obtaining them?

As to those outside of the US border expressing themselves on this board, I never said they shouldn't be allowed to do it, just that I have a hard time respecting their opinions...I would never  tell them how to live their lives or act as if I understood their heritage, thats all.


Rude,

It is true that this island cannot be compared to the US and I have tried not to appear to be telling Americans what they should or should not be doing.  I was merely expressing my concerns, as I travel to the US alot.

To answer your questions:

I can't say 100% for sure that there have been NO crimes since 1971/2 involving guns...but I cannot recollect any myself.  I was living in Canada for almost 12 years so one or two might have happened in that time.

The law here bans gun ownership unless you join the gun club..and even then you MUST keep it at the range.

My best to you and the kids.

Curval
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Offline H. Godwineson

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« Reply #147 on: November 04, 2002, 01:23:13 PM »
Many moons ago, during my second year of employment as an educational consultant for a local municipality, a co-worker became the sponsor of a Japanese exchange student.  During the brief conversations that I had with Jiro, I found him to be extremely intelligent, reticent, polite, and curious.  

Although of medium height by American standards he was slightly built.   Jiron quickly became addicted to American cuisine and began putting on weight.  After several weeks in America his sponsor felt that he might be feeling a little homesick.  To ease him through the transition period she prepared a traditional Japanese meal to celebrate his birthday, complete with all the trimmings and decorations.  That afternoon she proudly ushered Jiro into the dining room and presented him with the carefully planned and prepared meal.  After studying the table and it's spread of food for a moment he asked, "Where are the steak and potatoes?"

Later that fall, Jiro's sponsor approached me about taking him to my deer camp so that he could shoot a real gun.  I thought it an odd request so I enquired as to the reason why Jiro had asked to do this.  As it turned out, he was a member of a "gun club" in Japan.  He later showed me a photograph of he and his fellow club members posing with various realistic appearing "non-guns."  He explained that it was legal to be a member of such a club in Japan, but it was forbidden to fire a real weapon.  He had asked his sponsor if she knew of anyone who would be willing to take him somewhere so that he could fulfill his dream of firing a real firearm.  So she had approached me.

So, I loaded up a .22 caliber rifle and a .308 and took him to my deer camp.  We walked some trails through the woods, which was a unique experience for him, and then fired the .22 at some tin cans.  He declined to shoot the .308 after I fired it once to familiarize him with its report and recoil.  Nevertheless, he was delighted with the experience.  His sponsor told me that it was one of the high points of his stay in the United States.  Jiro later attended my wedding shortly before his return to Japan.

So, you see, it is possible to derive simple pleasure from firearms without posing a danger to oneself or to those around you.  It was my privilege to help Jiro fulfill his long-time dream.  I never saw Jiro again.

I have heard that he recently became the military dictator of a small southeast Asian country.


Regards, Shuckins

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #148 on: November 04, 2002, 01:38:19 PM »
midnight Target: Looks like the rate dropped pretty steadily starting in 1992.
 I agree, doesn't seem to be any correlation with the concealed carry law.
Probably due to the economy.


 Not really. The abortions were made legal in 1973. The most crime is commited by "underclass" youth aged 16-24 - average/mist serious 19-20. In 1992 the unwanted children aborted in 1973 would have turned 19.

 The number of abortions performed was very considerable. Almost all of them were in what we would call "underclass". Assuming 1/2 of unborn would have been male and about 1/3 of those would have been criminals (that is true for black males but being non-recist I assume it is about right for any "underclass") and even discounting secondary beneficial effects (a girl can continue education and get a job), you can predict how much any social ills statistics would drop - crime rate, abortion rate, etc. Than compare with real data starting 1989 (1973 + 16). I did just that - and it was almost exact match.
 So forget about all those "better economy", "better policing", better arms, tough Giuliani policies, affirmative action - it was just a "natural" process.

 The rates should have started  declining noticeably about 1989-90 (1973 + 16) and reached bottom / stabilised at about 1998 (1973 + 25).

 Oh, yeah - some localities legalised abortion a bit earlier than 1973 - and saw corresponding decrease and peak earlier.

 Just check the charts.


Nash: 17% of all homicides were at the hands of a stranger (they say that stat hasn't changed in 10 years).
 Oh, yeah - the same here, in US. Murder of a wife by a jealous husband or drive-by gang war shooting or drug dealer shot in competition for turf are all classified here as non-stranger violence...

 miko
« Last Edit: November 04, 2002, 01:44:55 PM by miko2d »