Author Topic: That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?  (Read 1302 times)

Offline Saurdaukar

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2002, 01:41:24 AM »
Statistics dont lie but you can lie with statistics.

In the MA - survival depends on a fast plane.  You can argue with this, I suppose, but the majority of the times I die arent because the pilot was any "better" than me - its because I made a mistake and got slow.  In a 1v1 situation, slow is almost ok - but as soon as another aircrfat arrives - or even 9 or 10 if youre fighting kniggits, your screwed.  I find myself parachuting to the ground if I have lost my speed advantage in or on the outskirts of a furball.

As soon as you lose the ability to engage and disengage on your own terms, you are at a disadvantage.  Of course in almost all cases like this, you must force an overshoot - this means getting slow in one way or another - this is fine for the aircraft you are fighting, but his 5 buddies now have numerical and position advantage on you.

The trick to fighting any plane by itself in the MA or in the DA is to use its strengths against it.  If the aircraft is slow, stay fast, if the aircraft is fast, force him to get slow.  If the abilities of the two engaged aircraft are similar, you are now flying more against the pilot.  In this case, I find (In the MA) that E is everything.  If you can figure out how to counter what your opponent is doing, youll win everytime.  

If your opponent pulls a panic fueled flat turn, move to the vertical to extend and you can reengage at your leisure.   If youre bloodthirsty, a high yoyo will work.  The key is to make equal trades.  If youre going to use E to turn, make sure you trade it for altitude.  By contrast - if youre going to drop your altitude to order to engage, make sure you get speed as a result.

Resources are paramount - as in any other activity.  The aircraft which uses up its resources first (E, alt, speed, ammo, fuel) is at an immediate disadvantage.  The proper use of these resources is what wins fights.  The wonderful thing about air combat is you can trade one resource for another (see above paragraph).  As long as you remain balanced, and have an advantage in a single area - you can use it to your overall advantage and win any fight.  

On a simpler note - I will state that I rarely find myself in a fair fight in the MA.  I dont mean numerically - because if I have 8-9K alt on 3 or 4 cons the only thing that I need to make sure of is that I kill them all quickly enough so that the last one doesnt have the time to climb to me.  By the same token, I dont mind being lower than a con, just so long as Im faster.  By avoiding "fair fights" what I mean is that a good portion of my kills are people who dont even know I am there.  Be it AFK, concentrating on something else, no SA, etc - these are the kills I love - if the aircraft doesnt see you at 600 back, he wont see you at 100 back - easy stuff - just roll right in on him, admire Superfly's artwork, and press the fun button.  The majority of the rest of my kills are people who I force to give up resources - primarily E.  My gunnery isnt top notch - so I love when an aircraft is sitting pretty at about 125 IAS for me (read: rope).  

If you remember when you first started playing these games, be it Air Warrior or Warbirds, your first few months, if not your few few years were spent focusing more on killing than living.  You saw an enemy icon and by god you were gonna shoot it down.  You blew every resource you had to shoot down that one plane and were then faced with 3 or his freinds which dispatched your low and slow bellybutton rather quickly.  The successful sticks in the MA are those who think of the game in a fashion similar to billiards - if you play pool - you know that you need to sink the ball youve got your eye on - but aside from that - you also need to set up your next shot.  What good is sinking a single ball when you simply give the que over to your opponent afterwards?  In the MA - make sure youve got enough left for successive aircraft - if you can learn when to lay your cards down and when to fold and wait for the next hand youll do alright.

Wow - long post sorry - if it doesnt make sense I apologize - tried to explain how I think of combat in AH - thats alot of thought to put into a few paragraphs.  :D

On a side note - Im well aware that youre a capable stick Urchin, so If youre having trouble fighting certain aircraft, you need to reexamine the basics of why they give you trouble and adjust youre plan of attack.  My guess is that the problem lies in the very first step of the fight - deciding whether or not you can win and engaging or disengaging from there.  I usually wont enter a fight unless Im relartively certain I can win it.  When I engage into a fight that I have doubts about winning, its because I made a mistake and was forced into it - this of course means that the pilot in the other aircraft was good enough to show me that "there is always someone better."  

:cool:
« Last Edit: November 18, 2002, 01:46:23 AM by Saurdaukar »

Offline Widewing

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2002, 02:36:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
One last thing that really puzzles me.  I mean, this one is really troubling.  I noticed that you can check individual PLAYERS stats out with this neat page that I found.  This one 'pilot', who will remain anonymous for his own protection, has some really good scores in some planes... but bad scores in other planes.  For example -  

He had 62 kills, and 2 deaths in the 190D-9.  Thats a K/D of 31.  
But, he had 6 kills and 5 deaths in the C202!  Thats only a K/D of 1.2.  Does that mean he all of a sudden got 30 times worse, just by changing planes?  

Can you explain this to me?  I am poised at my computer, clicking the refresh button with baited breath, awaiting enlightenment.


I think it indicates that he hasn't figuired out how to best fly the C.202 yet. Each aircraft has its better and lesser points. Learning these is critical to success. Typically, you can't take a 202 into situations where you can take the Dora. Simply because the Dora is fast enough to get away. On the other hand, the 202 cannot escape quite so easily. A second factor is the lousy guns of the 202. To get a kill, it often requires a great deal of ammo be expended. This can keep you in the fight too long, and you find yourself being overwhelmed by numbers.

I've flown the 202 this tour with good success. Largely because I have learned to use tactics that minimize the plane's limitations.

The issue of plane or pilot is impossible to define, because so many variable factors are present. A great pilot in a great fighter will be very tough to beat. Likewise, a Noob in a great fighter is just another kill waiting to be claimed by a skilled pilot in damn near anything.

I suspect that you are reading too much into that stat. If that guy flys the 202 enough, he'll learn how to better use it, and the stats will change accordingly. SA, tactics and ACM skills rank in that order of importance. Especially in early war fighters like the 202.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline gorski3

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2002, 03:41:56 AM »
Not one mention of scissors??  In my fw, I kill more than kill me when they start on my 6 and I start the scissors.  otoh, Mathman has zipped in and killed me twice less than 15 seconds into my scissors.  I vote for pilot skill.  Heck, there are pilots that absolutely can not be killed 1v1 by us mere mortals.  CAN'T!!

Gorski

Offline hogenbor

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2002, 05:41:00 AM »
/quote

If you remember when you first started playing these games, be it Air Warrior or Warbirds, your first few months, if not your few few years were spent focusing more on killing than living. You saw an enemy icon and by god you were gonna shoot it down.

/unquote

So VERY true. I am in my third month of AH, never played on-line before. See it, kill it, if possible. As a matter of fact, I have become a fairly competent killer by now. It's just so much fun, instant gratification

Most of my deaths come from situations where I find myself at a disadvantage and not infrequently it is my own fault (Read: Nearly always). Yesterday I ran into 10+ icons with my FM2 and I was low too after having been embroiled in a nice dogfight on the way.  Ofcourse I tried to sneak away but an FM2 is a bit slow for that...

To try to cure this, I am flying the P47 as a fighter more and more. To survive in this dumptruck you need to think ahead. A bit like chess or indeed, maybe playing pool. I don't get that many kills, but I manage to land my sorties every now and then too.

Long road ahead, much to learn, but hey, it's fun!

Offline Shane

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2002, 08:00:18 AM »
word of the day:

bloviate.

:cool:

here's what i'd really do in all 4 situations.

1. kill the spitix and die by the ensuing gangers.
2. kill the la7 and die by the ensuing gangers.
3. kill the niki and die by the ensuing gangers.
4. kill the p51d and die by the ensuing gangers.

:D
« Last Edit: November 18, 2002, 08:03:26 AM by Shane »
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline aztec

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2002, 08:07:37 AM »
Oh but whining is the way to illicit change in the MA Innominate, perked Chog, more complicated bomb sighting, and the upcoming forced side balancing clearly illustrate this.

Offline Shane

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2002, 08:18:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by aztec
Oh but whining is the way to illicit change in the MA Innominate, perked Chog, more complicated bomb sighting, and the upcoming forced side balancing clearly illustrate this.


2 out of 3 not bad.  i believe the buffers were drooling over the norden sight thingy before they realized it'll take *some* skill to use.

i came in a few tours before the chog got perked... from how i gather, it was well worth perking slightly. i'm honestly still puzzled as to why useage dropped so dramatically over a few measely perkies - i mean, 8, then 10 perkies? :confused:

as for the side balancing, i have a feeling it's not gonna be too well accepted, and to be honest, i've always stated you can't legislate players' ethos. it's almost like the nature v nuture argument, except the MA nutures one's basic nature.
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline Rude

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2002, 08:23:21 AM »
Hooligan nailed it!

Offline batdog

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2002, 08:28:45 AM »
Okay...listen up you tards. Its both..plane and pilot. The skill levels of the pilot ethier increase the advantage of the plane or subtract from that advantage. A good pilot in a early war plane vrs an "average" pilot in a lte war monster is essentialy much more of an even fight.


If its NOT the plane then WHY bother improving the perfermance of said planes? BECAUSE the PLANE FACTOR does count. It can even the playing field or subtract.

Your looking at 2 variables... x=plane, y=pilot. The sum of both is what makes total.

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Innominate

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2002, 08:41:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by aztec
Oh but whining is the way to illicit change in the MA Innominate, perked Chog, more complicated bomb sighting, and the upcoming forced side balancing clearly illustrate this.


We don't know how the side balancing will be done, I doubt it will be forced.

As far as I'm concerned, whining is when you complain about something in the game being wrong, without offering any explanation of why it shouldnt be that way, or how to fix it.

i.e.  "My c202 is always getting killed by la7's, spit9s, n1k2s and p51s!!!" is a pure whine, with no value.

Adding an argument of what to do about it, and why that should be done would give the post value.

Offline Shane

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2002, 08:45:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by batdog
Okay...listen up you tards. Its both..plane and pilot. The skill levels of the pilot ethier increase the advantage of the plane or subtract from that advantage. A good pilot in a early war plane vrs an "average" pilot in a lte war monster is essentialy much more of an even fight.


If its NOT the plane then WHY bother improving the perfermance of said planes? BECAUSE the PLANE FACTOR does count. It can even the playing field or subtract.

Your looking at 2 variables... x=plane, y=pilot. The sum of both is what makes total.

xBAT


missing several more variables than that.


inital alts, speeds, pilot personality, flight objectives, connection stability/latenecy, proximity of friends/acks/enemas/wife-girlfriend ack, amount of booze/drugs consumed,  vidcard/cpu/input devices, time of day in and out of game, phase of the moon...  need i go on?

:D
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline AtmkRstr

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2002, 09:10:09 AM »
You are in a F6F, enemy is in a Spit IX.  What do you do to win this fight?  
Dunno, I don't fly the F6F much but I know that it can out turn a spit 9 when fuel loads are in its favour.

You are in a 190D9, enemy is in a La7.  What do you do to win this fight?
Since I'm in a 190D9, I've always have atleast enough E to get to  atleast 13 or 14k in a zoom climb.  Therefore, I'd have every advantage except turn ability at that alt. Hard to lose.

You are in a 109G2, enemy is in a N1K2.  What do you do to win this fight?
Spiral climb while testing his fuel load vs. your own.  Turn/E fight if he's heavy on fuel.  Running on deck is always an escape option otherwise.

You are in a 110G2, enemy is in a P-51D.  What do you do to win this fight?
Point, shoot, spray and pray. Take any available shot, but don't let him rope you, fight with angles and make the best of the available shots. If he attacks, shots WILL be available, even if they're only HOs.

So obvisouly these situations put one plane in a disadvantage, in each of those situations.  Keep in mind that pilot skill in the MA is mostly about how to put yourself in favourable positions, not how to beat a single opponent. If you're in a 110G2 flying alone against a P51D coalt, you've already made a mistake or two and are in a disadvantage because of it.  Obviously it's easier to find and stay in a favourable position with some planes and the perk system IMO should encourage people to use the planes that are more challenging. It obviously doesn't do that very well, and I bet it has next to no effect.  

At the moment, the perk system simply limits the number of perk planes in the arena.  It has no other purpose.  That's another argument though, and I don't want to hijack the thread.

Offline batdog

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2002, 09:11:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
missing several more variables than that.


inital alts, speeds, pilot personality, flight objectives, connection stability/latenecy, proximity of friends/acks/enemas/wife-girlfriend ack, amount of booze/drugs consumed,  vidcard/cpu/input devices, time of day in and out of game, phase of the moon...  need i go on?

:D



Yea..your right Shane... lol. I firmly believe in the KISS factor though; Keep It Simple Stupid. Complexity is wasted on the masses...and particualry.. me.

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline wulfie

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2002, 09:48:20 AM »
(some of this has already been mentioned)

1. Gunnery (*not* gunnery %, which is a 'stat', see below) is way more important than most people think it is. In almost every fight where the odds are stacked against you, you will probably have one shot where if you are a very good shot you can end the fight then and there. This is why there are 100 people who may try to be 'master of the overshoot like drex' but they die like flies because they can't capitalize on the one chance they get. At least 3 times on any given night I find myself thinking I am about to explode and I never do. "I would have killed me for certain" goes thru my head - and on those 3 cases it is because I gave the other guy what *should* have been an easy kill.

2. Shane has a point, and that point is why the 'stats' cannot really be used to support an argument. The 'stats' do not tell you the mindset of the person the 'stats' are assigned to. If you looked at my 'stats' for the current TOD, and used them to reflect on my 'ACM skill' with someone whom I played WB with for 5 years or so and who now plays AH, they would probably tell you that 'something does not add up'. The same goes for many, many other players. I am sure there are TODs where the TOD 'stats' for drex and eagl would leave someone saying "how in the heck did those guys win all those 2 on 2s, especially vs. xxxx and xxxx who always have such great k/d ratios?".

Here's one example with an explanation: If you look at my 'stats' for this TOD (heck, for most TODs sadly) what you are seeing is alot of intentional takeoffs from heavily capped airfields becuse I have 10 min. to play AH and I want to shoot something. Hidden in that 10 min. is alot of my getting killed on the runway, etc. Mixed in with a bunch of '0 kills and 1 death' missions are a couple of 'shoot down 3 massively complacent vulching enemy in a Yak-9' mixed in with the occasional 'fly a real fighter sweep with wotan/drex/etc.' where the k/d for said mission is probably 10/0 or greater. Motivation is key. Someone can fly for (and attain) a good k/d and be easy meat for almost anyone with decent experience in a 1 on 1 engagement, regardless of the aircraft matchup. k/s is especially useless as a measure of skill due to rearming. If you could not rearm and someone had 10 k/s in a Yak, you'd know that he was at least an exceptional shot - barring vulching a totoally defenseless airfield...which is why 'average flight time of target' is a 'stat' that would be very useful.

3. I am a total believer in the theory of 'most fights are lost as opposed to won'. I believe in this in AH and in almost all cases of direct competition in real life. If you really think about it, most 1 on 1 engagements end almost immediately after someone makes a really bad mistake. Even in WBs 'heyday' as far as action is concerned, when you had roughly the same 80 guys playing every night - so there really weren't alot of 'easy kills', and there were lots of '1 on 1 engagements' (ah, the good old days, where you could tell 2 team mates to let you and a certain enemy go out to sea alone, because you wanted a good fight...something that the obsession with 'stats' basically killed I think) it was 1 time out of 10 where a 1 on 1 engagement went for more than 2 min. or so. That's why I think the 'pilot' matters alot. A great stick in a Bf 109E-4, fighting vs. a La-7, is going to know he's outmatched in the aircraft department and this is going to make him more focused and he probably won't make any mistakes. An average stick in the opposing La-7 can get killed if he makes one bad mistake. The most common one in my book (with the above matchup in mind) would be pushing the fight too hard in the vertical and giving the 'great' Bf 109E-4 a shot that the 'average' La-7 didn't think was a 'dangerous shot to give'. More often than not, the Bf 109E-4 then shreds the La-7 in some high speed crossing deflection shot at range 140 or so, with the La-7 driver saying 'lucky damn shot' to himself if he's arrogant or 'wow how'd me make that shot' if he still thinks he has something to learn.

In general, I'd think of aircraft as performance multipliers for pilot skill. A real killer, attempting to shoot down everything nearby and intent on landing all his kills would really make life difficult for 4 or 6 Bf 109E-4s if flying an La-7. An average La-7, unless flying very conservatively, would pretty quickly make a mistake vs. 4 or 6 average Bf 109E-4s (not keeping track of the 2 with the highest E state, burning too much E to get a good gun solution one time too many, etc.) and would then wind up getting shot down.

'Stats' are very deceptive. Early on in AH I went hunting for 'good fights' vs. enemies with 'high k/d & high k/s' and/or enemies who other (newer to online flight sim) players spoke of as 'being really good'. More often than not they were a real let down as far as a sweat producing 1 on 1 goes. Then some guy whom I never have really heard of would totally shock me in a 1 on 1.

Mike/wulfie

Offline Turbot

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2002, 09:55:56 AM »
In an arena where a pilot is free to pick whatever weapon they wish - it is of course pilot vs. pilot.   A pilot can assess their perceived skill level and pick a weapon that best suits them.  

An especially good pilot might pick a 109E just to show the La7 that he is that much better than them, or a newbie might fly a La7 because they need all the help they can get, etc etc etc.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2002, 01:37:32 PM by Turbot »