Author Topic: How about this for ICONS. (Read 460 times)

Pepe · « **Reply #15 on:** November 19, 2002, 02:38:18 AM »

Just my 0.02 Eur....

Current icon implementation is one of the most arcadish things in AH. I accept we need it for ranges over 1k. Definitely NOT under that range.

If you are unable to judge closure rate under 1k or telling roughly what's your distance to the target, you are due for a serious training period

I strongly vote to get rid of laser range finder under 1k.

Cheers,

fffreeze220 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 19, 2002, 03:00:08 AM »

No icon means u will killshoter urself more then u kill enemys.
Because the planesset is mixed.

Kweassa · « **Reply #17 on:** November 19, 2002, 04:25:03 AM »

Deez, I think the icons are a necessity for people to play games that intend to simulate the real world environment. First, I was also an enthusiastic no-icon advocate, especially spending many hours with no-icons in the CT.

No icon setting strengthens a truly thrilling and intensive gameplay and yet, AH graphics is too severely limited to give satisfactory results to people. After a few weeks of no-icon play, I could actually feel my eyes getting tired because of the increased stress they were under - it is undeniable that the quality of AH visuals is lacking very much compared to real life, and thus it requires excessive attention and concentration, straining, squinting for many people. I use a 19 inch monitor at 1280x960 resolution for playing IL-2, a game with absolutely superior graphics compared to AH.. and yet, even in IL-2 spotting planes can be a real pain.

Therefore, I think the icons themselves are the absolute limit as far as compromises go.

...

However, some points are valid. While icons themselves are a necessity, there's no need for it to stay the way it is. There can be many suggestions, variations and great ideas to how the icons should function.

Also, the "laser range finder" in AH has a tendency to promote long range shots over 'realistic ranges' so frequently mentioned. Some people argue we are all better in gunnery than WWII pilots, but I think it owes more to the fact that people can always confirm too easily whether their shots will land or not. They see the icon, read the numbers... "ah.. 600 yards.. a long burst of my Hispanos probably will ping him once or twice!".... "hmm.. 700~800 yards.. I'd better save ammo..."

Also, identification is all too easy, and as so frequently mentioned in the perk plane threads. With a crude scale of 1 yard = 1 meter, 6.0k range is 6000 meters, 18,000 feet away. I know some pilots have very good eye sight and can spot planes incredibly far away.. but I doubt anybody can tell the difference between a Spitfire and a Bf109 at 18,000 feet. "Spotting" and "identifying" doesn't necessarily come simulataneously. This makes life very hard for people in perk planes short of Tempests or 262.. they have to fly as timid as they can to actually survive and land good scores. Once you are spotted in a weak position scores of fighters will chase you around spraying like mad.

Thus.. I think there are some good reasons and necessities towards modifications on existing icons. A few changes here and there might call for a whole new ball game...

Xjazz · « **Reply #18 on:** November 19, 2002, 05:42:15 AM »

S!

Icons are needed in MA but laser range finder with 1 yard steps is a joke, no matter about monitor resolution etc blaa blaa.

One (possible old) idea

6 - 4k: only gray icon box (bogey) without plane type. Range info with 1000 yard steps 6..... 5.....

4 - 2k: from now gray icons turn to the red (plane type) or green (ID) concerning the side. Range info with 500yard steps. 4.. 3.5.. 3...

2 - 1k: "normal" icons. Range counter gives only with 200yard steps range

1 - 0: "normal" icons but no range info at all. Its a Gunsight Kindom inside a 1000yard.

OR

Just keep icons as they are now BUT at least change range info steps to the 200yards or even 500yards all the way.

BTW
Why clouds dont cover / disable whole icon and dot?

Goner · « **Reply #19 on:** November 19, 2002, 06:02:26 AM »

and what if it's night ??
i don't think that even with 20/20 2d-vision and at 1600x1200 you will be able to spot a plane (without icon) at any distance ...
will we get exhaust-flames ??

Goner

Xjazz · « **Reply #20 on:** November 19, 2002, 07:06:17 AM »

Yep, during the night it is bit difficult fight without icons, I know it well. S! RBug

How about this one?

How about if we remove enemy plane type info totally? We still have empty RED icon box with range finder (1 yard laser accurancy inside 1000 yard).

You can Idendify Friend or Foe without problem from 6000 yard (~5500m) distance with icon color.
If you like know enemys plane type, you need get close & personal or ask info from friends.

Now Perk Penalty Planes could have littlebit better change to survive, because d6k enemy plane type info icon aint screem over skys "Who wanna some perks?"
Anyway sooner or later peoples idendify PPPs and conga line is established.

Please, tell why we need enemy plane type info icons in MA?
Why not just a red icon box with range info is not enough?

JustJim · « **Reply #21 on:** November 19, 2002, 07:29:21 AM »

Knowing What Your Up Against Is Half The Battle.

If I'm In A Spit I Don't Want To Spend All Day Chasing A RunStang Because Even At 5k Its Hard To Tell Plane Type.

Believe It Or Not, Most People Who Play Games Of This Sort Are Not Totally Enveloped In Aviation, We Don't Know How Many Rivets Are Used To Hold Together An LA-7 As opposed To A Spit V.

I Think The Ability To Turn Icons On And Off Satisfies Everyone Fairly, If You Want To Use DAR Go For It.

Out Of All These Suggestions I See On These Boards If 1/100 th Of Them Were Implied Would Create So Much Havock How Many People Do You Think Would Play.

Some Things Are Great Others Suck, Such Is Life We Deal With That Everyday.

Everyone Wants Everything Changed, Yet When It Poses Problems Then Everyone Turns To squeaking Because What They Wanted Implimented Is Screwing Up Other Aspects Of The Game.

I'll Be Happy With A Stable And As Little Problems As Possible Game As Hitech Can Provide.

WOW Who Pissed In My Coffee This Morning, Sorry For The Rant Just Voiceing My Opinion.

With All The People Who Play This Game, If Everyone Got Their Own Personal Preferences I Think It Would Totally Suck.

No One Is Happy Now, No One Would Be Happy Then Either.

* We Now Return You To The Normal Post, This Has Been A Test Of Drinking Decaffinated Coffee* Obviously It Dont Work

AtmkRstr · « **Reply #22 on:** November 19, 2002, 07:32:08 AM »

So far, jbroey3 is the only one who mentioned actual air to air spotting experience.

I have a tiny bit of that experience, and enough to know that it is very, very hard. An icon range of 6km is just rediculous, even under the best conditions.

I know I can judge clusure distance better in AH without icons than in real life. I suggest the rest of you guys give it a try.

lazs2 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 19, 2002, 08:02:55 AM »

The radioactivity gives people from jersey special vision.. he should turn off his icons to make it fair.
lazs

JustJim · « **Reply #24 on:** November 19, 2002, 08:25:06 AM »

Perk Radioactivity

popeye · « **Reply #25 on:** November 19, 2002, 08:30:40 AM »

I think the rate of closure information is much more important in a 2D world than absolute range, so I'd settle for some RoC indicator that doesn't necessarily give exact range.

Also, I think there should be some delay in acquiring a bogey based on range. This would eliminate the "three-snap-instant-SA" that is now possible. So, at 6K the dot would appear in 1 second, the RoC indicator in 2 seconds, and the plane type in 3 seconds. Or....something.

I'd also like to see dot dar refresh interval increased to 15-30 seconds, to eliminate AWACS SA, and simulate a realistic lag in ground controller info.

But, in the end, it's all about game play.

Turbot · « **Reply #26 on:** November 19, 2002, 08:33:27 AM »

Yet another who missed that the AH MA was never intended to be a simulation of World War II, but rather a game based upon World War II aircraft. Perhaps you would have more luck in the CT forum - they will try anything in there (been working great for them too).

Rude · « **Reply #27 on:** November 19, 2002, 09:46:54 AM »

Always somethin to complain about.

JB...I've flown rl for years and have a problem with your remark about being able to ident in AH more easily than in rl....that's just not true.

If you ask any rl pilot here, I'm certain they will all tell you that they can visually ident another aircraft at well over a miles distance....not only that, but to see specific markings of that aircraft as well.

Is our current icon thingie just right....no, I would like to see a change. Couple of years ago, Toad and myself talked to Dale about changing the current icon markings inside of 1k to a simple red or green dot so as to ident enemy from friendly aircraft....he declined as he believed his way was better. I'm good with that as I feel I have many other concerns along the lines of personal improvement relating to how well I fly his sim/game...in other words, bigger fish to fry.

To say that what we see on our monitors is better than what you see in rl is, well, kinda silly:)

Wlfgng · « **Reply #28 on:** November 19, 2002, 10:52:59 AM »

the fact is that you can see better on the PC in some ways than in real life... ok in one way.

when an AC is distant it's a dot (pixel) in the computer world.
in the real world it isn't so easy to locate.. much more 'blended' with the world.

as for closure rate, aspect, etc.. real world is much better.
hence the icons.

but when it comes to 'locating' a con at a distance.. it's easier in AH than the real world. it ends there though.

Kirin · « **Reply #29 on:** November 19, 2002, 12:52:48 PM »

JAB, beyond 10 meters stereoscopic vision does not play a role for depth perception anymore! The angle between the 2 pictures (from either eye) is too small. After that our brain "calculates" distances by clues like size, shadows, overlapping, markings etc., which is all clearly visible on a computer screen!

---

I won't argue that RL perception is much better than any computer screen - but being able to tell friend from foe, laser ranged distance and plane type in a split second in a massive furball enviroment, while pulling G's etc. is NOT what it was (is) in RL! ID'ing was part of the "game" - it's not in AH! Planes that had similar shape were sometimes hard to distinguish - not so in AH.

I've been flying IL2 in a complete icon-less enviroment for some months now - while this is the other extreme (and also not always realistic in some aspects) I don't wanna miss the immersion. With friendly collision and fire on it adds a whole level to gameplay! You have to learn the shapes of planes to ID them quickly - communcation gets much more important. And dogfights get more interesting - disenganging becomes a valid tactic - even with not-the-fastest-plane (e.g. La7) - camouflage, clouds and the sun (!!!) become your best friends. Having the sun in your back when you attack is a IMMENSE advantage!

In AH I wouldn't go as far as NO icons (free for all arena, no historical planesets) but reduce the neon signs to a bearable minimum. Neutral icon at longer range (4k) - then nationality - then planetype - relative closure and maybe ranges in 100 yard steps (makes gunnery less dependeble on the numbers your rangefinder tells you).