Death Penalty... yes or no?

[Kanth]

Does that make them less human? (i'm not talking about the whole tumor thing, it's like the coma thing)

The fact that they have less rights until they are 18 or 21 and the fact that they don't have any rights when they are still globs has something in common imo.

Originally posted by Kieran
Hey, my minor tumors don't have full rights either until they are twenty-one.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Kieran
Hey, my minor tumors don't have full rights either until they are twenty-one.

No, but they have enough rights, that you can't kill them at will...unless you are very very carefull.

[Reschke]

Originally posted by hardcase
Any society that kills its prisoners is flawed. BTW..look at the countries that still have it on their books. It is not company any advanced society would want to be seen with.

I disagree there hardcase but that is why we live where we live. We have the right to disagree and voice our own opinions.

Sure of those countries that still have capital punishment on their law books there are some I would not want to be associated with. However if you think about those same countries that have it they have a lower murder rate due to the way those executions are handled I think. I don't think our society will ever allow someone to be publicly hanged/shot/electrocuted/gased/injected even when the person who committed the crime needs to be killed publicly.

JUST A HYPOTHETICAL THOUGHT HERE DON'T BLAST ME FOR IT!
For instance what happens with Osama Bin Laden? How can you prove he was the mastermind behind 9/11/01? How will you keep him locked up for the remainder of his natural life IF he is convicted?

Me personally I am all for letting him loose in Times Square and notifying the public of his location prior to releasing him. I think that would be a more suitable deterent but then you might have Hillary (Communist lover) Rodham Clintonista trying to stop her "fellow" New Yorkers from killing him. But that would just make it more appealing for collateral damage to me if she were in the vicinity.

[hardcase]

Kieran, your wife is lucky having you, she is lucky being with someone who loves her and children, educated, from a stable family for starters, my guess. Abortion would have never been an option with you two. To you two the idea is totally foreign. It is foreign because of your life. What if you were a wife beater, child beater. Would it be foreign to you wife then?  Not all women are so fortunate. Why, with it being foreign to you, ,do you want to impose the choice you made on someone else. Your choice came from priviledge, abortions come from a lack of privlege, income, education, oppurtunities, weak will character.

Life is not all flowers and sunlight for all.


BTW your children are not fetuse. Potential is only that,nothing more.


HC

[Kieran]

I'm just goofing, really. The whole argument that a fetus isn't a human is just so... ludicrous.

If you really want to make the point for abortion to an ultra-conservative, broach the issue of birth control. How does religion and the Bible view birth control?

[Kieran]

Me personally I am all for letting him loose in Times Square and notifying the public of his location prior to releasing him.

Or Berkley. They may want to hold a parade for him...

[lazs2]

thrawn... i missed it..  when exactly is the unborn a human being.   I don't really know and would be glad to be enlightened... I tend to think that once it can survive without the mother it is human but will listen to any sensible answer... tumors is not a sensible answer.

hardcase... do any of those countries mentioned kill by leathal injection?   why do you think that it is not putting them out of their misery?   Certainly it will protect others that the sociopath may kill in the future.   I am not for killing inocent people.   As for how they got that way and what is the best way (if it is even possible) to rehabilitate them?   that has nothing to do with it.   The "failure" (if it is a failure) of society is allready done.   Kill off the unsavable ones and work on not creating new ones if there is indeed a way to prevent sociopaths.   Next you can work on curing child molesters.   good luck on both counts.   I certainly don't trust you to make sure they are never a problem agin tho.   Not at this point in time.
lazs

[Kieran]

What if you were a wife beater, child beater.

Who says I'm not? Remember, I am one who spanks my children if/when they need it. 'Course I could also point out my step-father did beat me and my siblings... does that mean I should wish I had been aborted? (I know, some of you wish I had!)

[Eagler]

Originally posted by hardcase
Kieran, your wife is lucky having you, she is lucky being with someone who loves her and children, educated, from a stable family for starters, my guess. Abortion would have never been an option with you two. To you two the idea is totally foreign. It is foreign because of your life. What if you were a wife beater, child beater. Would it be foreign to you wife then?  Not all women are so fortunate. Why, with it being foreign to you, ,do you want to impose the choice you made on someone else. Your choice came from priviledge, abortions come from a lack of privlege, income, education, oppurtunities, weak will character.

Life is not all flowers and sunlight for all.


BTW your children are not fetuse. Potential is only that,nothing more.


HC

what if you were 19 and she was 18, neither had an education past HS, neither had a job or two nickels to rub together, neither had parents who had a nickel to spare, you weren't married, you didn't own a car, furniture or have a place to live...

Abort right?

my abortion turns 24 Saturday and his abortion turned 2 last October - it's called character and responsibility for ones own actions.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by lazs2
thrawn... i missed it..  when exactly is the unborn a human being.   I tend to think that once it can survive without the mother it is human

That's exactly what I said.

[hardcase]

A fetus is just a human fetus. It is not a human.

You want to end abortion? Fix the reasons that cause them. Till then, it is an imperfect world. Ask your wife if she can think of any life situation where she would get an abortion. Ask her would she feel protected if abortions were made illegal.

Men want to make the rules of a game they dont play.

HC

[Kanth]

well, the argument isn't really that the fetus isn't human as in , it comes from some other animal..

 human is standing in for "human rights"

the fetus doesn't have the right to live. (like a human that has been born does, and a child does not have the right to self determination that an adult has)

That's the argument imo.

Originally posted by Kieran
I'm just goofing, really. The whole argument that a fetus isn't a human is just so... ludicrous.

[Kieran]

Yes it is, Kanth. It's precisely the argument the Pro-Choice have to make because it is too unsavory to say they are sacrificing the life of a human because it is inconvenient/painful/insert-whatever-reason to bring it to term. To say "yes, we know it is a person, but we are going to kill him/her anyway because _______" is too unpalatable. Better to argue "well, it isn't really a person yet, so killing it is ok."

BTW, no offense on the sig.

[Kieran]

Then Thrawn... at what point is an abortion immoral? At how many weeks? Are you saying at any time, first trimester, second trimester?

[Thrawn]

It becomes immoral when the child can live outside the uterus.

I glad you know why pro-choices have made their moral decisions better then they do themselves.

Pro-lifers don't seem to have any philosophy, morals or thoughts behind why a zygote is a human at all.