Author Topic: Death Penalty... yes or no? (Read 3397 times)

Sandman · « **Reply #165 on:** November 19, 2002, 10:07:05 PM »

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Originally posted by Eagler
The womans "right to decide" happens way before the sperm and the egg unite.

After that, it ain't her call.

It's certainly not my call... or yours.

That leaves... who?

funkedup · « **Reply #166 on:** November 19, 2002, 10:12:36 PM »

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Originally posted by thrila
Several months ago when having sex with my ex-girlfriend the condom had split. Neither of us want children, she's a 17yr old student studying very hard to get good grades for Uni and i don't want any kids until i get a decent job (and older). In the morning we marched off to the pharmacy and bought the morning after pill- £60 it was too!

So i guess i'm an evil murderer eh?

No, that pill prevents conception. It does not cause an abortion.

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #167 on:** November 20, 2002, 02:33:25 AM »

Wrong Funked - that pill prevents a fertilised egg from embedding on the uterus wall. Know as 'the morning after pill'. Since Christian types believe conception is the start of life, I guess we are all murdering bastiges.

It is not 'the pill', which has been around since the 60s.

BTW thrila, you were ripped off mate. Last time I had to buy the morning after pill (I wasn't taking it, before there are any wisecracks) it was £20 not £60.

Wrong Mietla - The age of consent in Britain is 16 - it is perfectly legal to have sex with someone who is over that consensual age, even if you are over 18. From 16 onwards, in the eyes of the law, a girl/woman is able to give consent.

Kieran · « **Reply #168 on:** November 20, 2002, 06:15:16 AM »

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Since Christian types believe conception is the start of life, I guess we are all murdering bastiges.

Ah, good. I was afraid we wouldn't take a swipe at religion. Thanks.

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #169 on:** November 20, 2002, 06:40:42 AM »

Do we man decide for women what's best ???

That would be fediddlein arrogant.

bounder · « **Reply #170 on:** November 20, 2002, 06:43:06 AM »

Many other forms of female contraceptive pill also work by preventing implantation of even fertilised eggs. The morning after pill, or drugs like methotrexate (sp?) serve to induce a rejection of successfully implanted cells.

Is forcing a rejection different to preventing implantion? If not then millions and millions of women the world over are aborting their children every day, in addition to those using morning after pills, or undergoing abortions.

Plato used to assert that parents should have the right of life and death over their offspring until they were aged thirty...

Those of us who favour controlled abortion over a complete ban should give up trying to split hairs over when a blastocyte becomes a zygote becomes a fetus becomes a baby becomes a human . Accept that humans start at conception.

Which means it's really just a question of how squeamish we are, not what specific age the blob becomes a bloke (or bird).

To me the argument turns on the question of whether life is is some way 'sacred'. Looking at the evidence around me in the world today, I would say not. Our grief for recently deceased is in direct proportion to our bond with them.

As for the death penalty

YES.

Execution for murder is a strong Christian tenet (Exodus v21(?) the whole bit with "an eye for an eye") that has been with us ever since it was written, and probably before. It's one of several 'laws of natural justice' enshrined in the bible and others.

BUT it should be reciprocal.
If a man is convicted and executed and later found to be innocent, his grieving family are owed exactly one life.

They should be legally entitled to execute the judge or a member of his surviving family who passed the sentence.

That would certainly be a deterrent against passing the death sentence on an innocent man, but the guilty would hang.

A whole new definition of 'irrefutable proof' would take place.

Thrawn · « **Reply #171 on:** November 20, 2002, 08:41:21 AM »

How is execution Chrsitian? I can see it being Jewish. "Thou shalt not murder.", and all, implying that legal killing isn't a sin.

But doesn't the word of Christ supercede the old Testament for Christians?

Didn't Christ say turn the other cheek?

It seems to me that some Christians follow the word of Christ until it becomes inconvienient, they then disregard his word and follow the old testament.

lazs2 · « **Reply #172 on:** November 20, 2002, 08:51:44 AM »

"what if you were 19 and she was 18, neither had an education past HS, neither had a job or two nickels to rub together, neither had parents who had a nickel to spare, you weren't married, you didn't own a car, furniture or have a place to live...

Abort right? "

well... this get's right to it.. it describes the situation exactly with my first born son. In those days... there was no abortion that was legal or, allmost none. It was not an option. I sucked it up and married the woman and paid for my son through marrage and divorce. It worked out for the best for everyone especially my son and his family and all the people he touches.

now... in the day.... when abortion was so difficult there were tragedies but... there wasn't some huge birth explosion like you would expect given the number of abortions we have now. Whjy is that? People are different? How so? I was there and I'm still alive.. maybe it is the social engineering that has caused the problem? certainly the amount of abortions performed are directly or indirectly responsible for far more "tragedies" than ever occured before abortion on demand? Perhaps something more in the middle is in order? Perhaps people would act somewhat more responsibly if there were some consequence to not?

thrawn... are you saying that an abortion after about 5 months (more or less) is murder? I would tend to agree.. Killing prisoners is "murder" too but the cause is just and I feel the tradeoff (him not killing again and possible deterance) is well worth it... I feel that maybe saving the mothers life is a good tradeoff for a late term abortin but other than that...
lazs

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #173 on:** November 20, 2002, 08:57:15 AM »

Why is it a swipe at religion? Isn't conception the start of life according to Christians? Some people on this board have already called the act of abortion 'murder'. The morning after pill aborts a perfectly viable, fertilised egg - it might be called abortion. Ergo, I am an accomplice to a murder! The only thing more ridiculous than that scenario is your own insistence that it's perfectly alright to write comment like this:

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Conservatives allow fetuses to grow and screw their own lives up before aborting them. Liberals abort the fetuses because the mother screwed up.

...but the minute anyone criticizes your beliefs, you act like someone with a monumental martyr complex. If you can't take it Kieran, I suggest you refrain from giving it out.

Personally, I'm happy with abortion before the CNS is developed. Afterwards, I find it less acceptable unless rape is involved or the pregnancy is in danger of killing the woman. Abortion for birth control is not something I'm too comfortable, but rather that than some kid who's going to be neglected and unloved.

The 'morning after pill' is perfectly acceptable IMO.

Above all, give women the choice and let's have some real 'personal responsibility'. I thought conservatives were generally against a 'nanny State'?

Kieran · « **Reply #174 on:** November 20, 2002, 09:12:49 AM »

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How is execution Chrsitian? I can see it being Jewish.

Execution is Christian- did you miss the part of the Bible in Revelation where judgement is discussed? Isn't eternal damnation an execution of sorts?

Bear in mind Jesus did not change God's mind about things. God instructed his people to execute criminals, and they did. Jesus warned "I am not changing a single word that was written" regarding God. The most important thing Jesus did was to become the ultimate sacrifice. This did away with animal sacrifice, but it did not do away with all law.

"Turn the other cheek"? That has to be one of the most misapplied quotes from Jesus. This doesn't mean let people walk all over you, it means be slow to take offense. It certainly doesn't mean you don't hold people accountable for their actions. Christians are supposed to forgive people that wrong them. They aren't supposed to ignore criminal activity. Big difference, and something that always seems to be overlooked.

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It seems to me that some Christians follow the word of Christ until it becomes inconvienient, they then disregard his word and follow the old testament.

While no doubt true, it does not shore up your argument against the death penalty. "Some Christians don't practice their faith properly = death penalty is wrong" is not a valid equation.

Dowding-

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Since Christian types believe conception is the start of life, I guess we are all murdering bastiges.

Look familiar? Looks like a swipe to me, though it is hard to tell, what with me dealing with my persecution and all. Maybe you meant it as a compliment and I misread it.

BTW, I've already said earlier in the thread that is the real issue, and the way to win the argument against Pro-Life advocates.

Thrawn · « **Reply #175 on:** November 20, 2002, 09:15:51 AM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
thrawn... are you saying that an abortion after about 5 months (more or less) is murder?

Yes.

Kieran · « **Reply #176 on:** November 20, 2002, 09:16:51 AM »

Fair enough, Dowding.

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #177 on:** November 20, 2002, 09:17:01 AM »

I just finished editing my post as you posted your last one - I think it goes some way to answering your points.

Kieran · « **Reply #178 on:** November 20, 2002, 09:22:00 AM »

My last one LAST one, or the last one before the LAST one?

You're right, I should have let the comment pass. Too sensitive on my part.

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #179 on:** November 20, 2002, 09:23:23 AM »

Heh - it is confusing.