Engine Management

[Bad Omen]

Thx for the post Pyro.

I would settle for basic features first, then looking at more detail later. I think we could all live with that.

[burbank]

one engine management tool that would add immersion at a non-combat time is cowl flaps/oil radiator gills.
Used during taxi and climb they could simply overheat/kill the engine if not used correctly.
Fairly simple like wheels - some drag, a speed limit, and if outside sped/power envelope engine stops in X min.
Something to add a little "feel" to the startup taxi sequence - immersion starts best as you get in the plane.  Help to stop "click/fly/dead/click/fly/dead" cycles.

Maybe eagle's idea about pitch, but just a simple "full fine" selection, which you must select to get sufficient power for clean takeoff, and 10% combat edge, but aircraft would work in spite of it - like the easy mode is for performance in WB.

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burbank
WWII history books
 http://www.senet.com.au/~mhyde/burbanks_books.htm

[Crispy]

First off I respect the guys that want engine management.  But I don't think they quite know what they are asking for.  :-)

I happen to have a Pilots manual for a F4U-1D on my lap at present. HeHe there are over 50 buttons, dials, levers scattered all over the cockpit.  Just the throttle control has 5 levers and 1 dial on it..... yeeeesh.  There are 3 levers just for the cowling flaps. There are several levers for cooling flaps.   There are 18 steps to go thru to just start the engine...to lengthy to list...but believe me its there.  Another 8 steps for warm up procedure...hey were not even in the air yet.    Now to the good stuff....there are 26 steps or procedures to carry out on roll out....yup 26!  Hey were finally in the air :-)  52 steps or procedures just to get air born.  Now lets say you want to dive in on a boogie....here are the steps just for a simple dive:

1.) Cabin - closed
2.) Landing gear up
3.) Dive brake control turned on
4.) Wing flaps up
5.) Set propeler at 2400 rpm
6.) Mixture - set to Auto Rich
7.) Throttle - Set just open
8.) Super charger - Set to Neutral
9.) Fuel Tank selector - Set to reserve
10.) Cowl flaps - set to closed
11.) Oil Cooler flaps - set to closed
12.) Inter cooler flaps - set to closed
13.)  WATCH ENGINE RPM DO NOT EXCEED 3060rpm

Granted the first 4 were obvious & reduntant but fail to do any of the other and  nasty things tended to happen.

Heck there 9 things to just to shut off the air plane....turn off engine.

I am afraid I agree 100% with Pyro one ;-)  this one.  Heck there is not even enough keys on my key board to cover them all much less learn what each one does. There is a fine line between fun, playability, practability, and economics.  And I think Pyro has it about just perfect.  Maybe a couple more functions but thats it.  Like maybe what the Hog drivers used to do....they would take more fuel out of one of there wing fuel tanks than the other one to compensate for torque and would have to use less trim tabs there for plane would be a bit cleaner & faster.  Yeah right Its got to end some where.  I have Falcon 4.0 and it is way cool but I spent a month just learning how to take off & land proficiently, & use the proper techniques.  Sorry but this would just not work in an online arena type simulation where players (customers) are needed to support it.

Just my humble opinion.  Great Job Pyro!



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Crispy

[Brazos]

>>5.) Set propeler at 2400 rpm
  6.) Mixture - set to Auto Rich
  7.) Throttle - Set just open
  8.) Super charger - Set to Neutral
  9.) Fuel Tank selector - Set to reserve
 10.) Cowl flaps - set to closed
 11.) Oil Cooler flaps - set to closed
 12.) Inter cooler flaps - set to closed
 13.) WATCH ENGINE RPM DO NOT EXCEED 3060rpm

fail to do any of the other and nasty things tended to happen...<<

And those nasty things are the very reason good pilots would enjoy system management. Do it better than the other guy and gain an advantage. Just like flaps and fuel management now. One other reason as well. Pride. I know military, civilian and airline pilots who consider todays sims games. Someday a team will give them an authentic sim with guns, and will be rewarded with a rabid following imo. MSFS sells pretty well. Pyro's right that it would be a tuff undertaking for a start up company, but someday. BTW, great post Crispy!

[Jinx]

I still want it..  

I know, Im a nut. But just separating mixture and throttle for example, would be a great step forward and fairly easy manage.. IMHO

  -Jinx

[eric]

Well...IMHO for the first few weeks if we had implimented this engine program..you wouldnt have to worry about being shot down (if you or the con could even get in the air   let alone every time someone dives on you..you just fly level because you know they will forget to do something and whiz right by you and splash into water or so.. being a "real-life" pilot myself... It wouldnt be hard to learn.. and it would be neat to have that feature..But everyone would be affriad to attack everyone     well thats just my $0.2
-eric-
P.S. Crispys post was accurate..when i started with pipers and onto cessna's there was about 17 takeoff steps you had to do..And the pre-flight check (gee wouldnt it be fun if we got to have a little guy walk around and check the fuel, gear, wings props, etc for damages?? hehe)   That is too involved to have fun... as many people have said.. And I program and once they are this far to where they have a working sim..adding that would be all hell..  having to go back and change every little setting to reflect changes even *IF* the user decides to change engine mixtures..etc...
 

[Kats]

crispy, hehehehehe. Assume your in cruise and you see a con. You would more than likely make a few fine adjustments and attack - you will very rarely be configured for optimum use of the a/c, and that's why I want it. I believe this will bring a greater parity between a/c during combat. 1 degree/second turn advantage, or 5mph speed advantages etc. would be moot under a more realistic sytem. Sound tactics and knowing "your plane" will win the day.

PS, Falcon 4 has more than 26 buttons to operate the MFD's alone, actually about double. How do they do it? How many copies did they sell? I only speak for myself and what would interest me. I am not saying my way is the only way, only that I believe there is quite a demand for the type of simm I am talking about - just as there is for the type of simm you are talking about.  



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[bod]

Please remember that checklists like the one quoted above are something that the pilots have trained to the point that they could do half-dead. They did not have to *remember* anything of this, they did it automatically.

I am a "real life" pilot as well, but i fly only a fraction of what the WWII pilots did, still i can do the checks for incidents like fire, dead engine etc. without doing much thinking, just like all the rest of pilots.

But somehow i agree with pyro to a point, the line has to be drawen somewhere (not everyone like to memorize check lists). That is, if you have taken the decision that the same single line *has* to be common to *everyone* that play the game. I would like that each individual could draw their own lines like most other sims allow. I guess this will require a lot of work, but someday maybe?  

However, i precise model of fixed pitch/variable pitch/automatic/constant speed would have an impact also in the damage model. Fixed pitch and manual pitch adjustment speek for itself with regard to overspeeding the engine. With constant speed drives (the most common in WWII ac), several types where used, hydraulic driven by the engine oil, electric, mechanical and several different sub-designes on each. The controlling mechanism, the governor, where far from optimized by todays' standard. Also, if you dont feather a dead engine in a P38, you would be in serious trouble because of the drag from the windmilling (the same goes for all twin- and multi engined planes by the way).

In my opinion a decent engine model is an important object in a ac model, and not just an "immersion factor" (although it would add tremendiously to the immersion factor as well, especially with correct sound   ).

I am a bit puzzled why go to such extent in detailed modelling of everything else and especially the damage model without even considering the engine and the propellers. WWII planes where afterall not some electrically powered R/C gliders, but had huge "living and breathing" engines that had to be taken care of - wether we like it or not. Operating an engine is not "micromanagement" as some try to convince us, this is how they are run period.

Sure, *once* in an ACM situation, you dont do much adjustments, but as Kats pointed out, that is the whole point. And what about long jabo runs, bombing.. Someday?  

Bod

[leonid]

I'm with Pyro on this too.  Such detailed steps and functions are necessary for RL pilots, but for a commercial flight sim that is asking for commercial suicide.  I love flight sims as much as the next person, but I would not want to get bogged down with all this management stuff.  Remember in WWII when the Brits got their first look at a Fw190 that landed accidently in England?  They simply freaked when they saw that prop pitch handle that did everything for you!  I'm sure RL pilots would jump at the idea of just pushing a button and viola! it's ready to go!  

[Ozymandias_KoK]

Also, F4 may have beaucoup controls used for modelling this and that, but how many people bought the sim and didn't realize what they were getting into?  Oops, wasted purchase.  And prolly a lot more did that whenit hit the $20 mark as well.  "Well, for only $20 I'll at least take a look at it."  However, the goal for AH will be to hook people and KEEP them flying.  How long did (or still do) any of us fly WB? 4 years?  Some longer?  That's success, not selling X number of copies -- particularly if they don't generate revenue beyond the point of purchase.

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TKoKFKA-OZDS-

[bod]

He he,

Lets just say that WB really *had* the choice of managing the engines. Not everybody would use it, but i am positively sure that at least 50% would, if for no other reason than the "dweeb factor" (Who could call himself an ace when not running the plane in "realistic" mode   ).

And now this fresh and new sim called AH hits online. Pyro tells us that he has decided that engine management is unimportant this time, and therefore this is not modelled. I just would love to see all the threads on this board about the "dumbed down and downright dweebish" engine model, and how suicidal it is not to include engine management in a modern sim  


Bod

[Windle]

Ok - here's the deal guys

Concerning cockpit controls, I have no desire to go through 26 steps for engine startup or whatever. That is of course, ludicrous. The additions I propose mainly deal with things that we could really have used playing WB's. -Crispy-, I have to say you went a little overboard describing the number of levers and handles in the Corsair.   I do agree there is alot to think about when hopping into the REAL thing. Online I don't think anyone wants to run the risk of death at the hands of some rediculous little engineering quirk. All I ask is that we include some of the basics to help (not hurt) gameplay:

Cowl flaps for example when my engine is overheated after a fight. Of course I risk supercooling but wouldn't it be nice to cool off that well WEP'ed engine a little quicker once you fine tuned the ability to do so without causing harm to your engine? When you enter the plane on the ground the flaps are already open (as they should be) so ground handling is a no brainer. Forget to close them on takeoff and, at the most, you loose some knots on the top end. No need for intercooler or oil cooling flaps in the game.

Throttle bank should offer throttle, prop pitch, and blower control. I honestly don't see how that is too much for anyone to grasp. Handling these basic systems would become a subconscious effort after three of four flights and the benefits would far outweigh their absence.

We obviously don't need an immersive technical lesson in managing the finest engineering details of our planes. What we need is the ability to perfect the handling of our machine in combat. Something that will offer benefits to the guys who put in the extra time in the arena.

Selectable fuel tanks has been a major gripe for some time mainly due to people getting fuel leaks in one tank and loosing ALL their fuel! This would be added more as a preventative measure rather than something to enhance ACM. I've heard plenty of these complaints and I dont think it would be overly technical to add. If it's too much for some to handle then add a feature that automatically switches tanks after the first is emptied. The worst they'll have to deal with is a slightly imbalanced plane.  

We SHOULD NOT add things that are meant to immediately get you in trouble if you don't acknowlege their presence - that would be problematic. We SHOULD add things that enhance the efficiency of ACM gameplay if you choose to use them. Pitch settings, cowl flaps, blower control, and selectable tanks in themselves are functions that, at most, would reduce the efficiency of gameplay for those who chose not to utilize them. OTOH for those who did use them, gameplay is enhanced and the enjoyment of a deeper immersion in their favorite combat sim could be realized.

I hope this helps put more of a solid and realistic focus on what I believe we are looking for as a whole. We can muse over the finest of details of aircraft engineering but in the end what is truly needed are the faculties for focusing the basic powers of our aircraft in combat.

Do you see the difference?


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Windle
*Future Aces High VF-17 'Jolly Rogers' squadron 8X

[Kats]

My last word on the subject  

Over the years there has been a certain sense of pride of being successful in WB combat. This is derived from the perception that we are playing a sim with the best FM's, gunnery models etc etc. Eventually (soon  ) simms will come out with a higher level of detail concerning flight and flight management that will shatter any preconceived fantasy you might of had that WB represents what it was to fly a piston driven aircraft. Once this happens, that sense of accopmplishment will dissapear, especially knowing that a "real man's" simm exists and you don't have what it takes to compete (whether it's a matter of time, or skill..whatever.)

Those who want to test themselves against the best will flock to the most accurate simm, while the casual player will be satisfied with stick and rudder. This is by no means a slam, AW is still the most popular and look how arcadish it is. AH is probably capturing a wide audience with their concept will be fun and entertaining (see WB). All I am saying is that there is another market out there that has been completely ignored and would also have an immediate audience and much longer legs.  

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[leonid]

Kats,

There may be a market for it, but how lucrative would it be?  How much would such people be willing to pay to make up for the lower numbers?

In any case, Ideally, two sets could be made for players:
a) engine management
b) normal

All in one arena.  This might, I suspect, cause some grumbling as the 'realists' realize they're getting 'busted' because the 'players' don't spent anywhere near as much time tweaking their engine in combat, subsequently spending more time paying attention to SA, gunnery, etc.  Next, the 'realists' start asking for an ultra-real Arena, or just give up on engine management.  Finally, the ultra-real Arena becomes so unused that it is closed, resulting in a waste of development resources.  Of course, three years down the road, it starts up again.  Ahh, the circle of Life...

[Kats]

Leonid, I appreciate your point of view. I am not convinced the assumption that a more complex FM would mean lower numbers is true when you are talking about the WB communty.

My line of reasoning is simple. The WB crowd scoffs at playing AW for a flat rate and is willing to pay $2.00/hour for that extra level in FM realism. That says to me that the average Wb'ers definition of fun is challenge. There is also the snob appeal, and it isn't financial. Wb'ers take pride that they can be successful in a simm that is much more demanding than the other ones, similar to an athelete whos in the NHL compared to playing in the minors. My point was that if a more challenging sim appeared, it would diminish that type of appeal to WB type simms and probably and absorb a large % of that niche market. At the very least, a WB type simm could no longer justify the premium price they now get.

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