Author Topic: How many here believe in evolution?  (Read 15613 times)

Offline Hortlund

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #210 on: December 02, 2002, 08:29:15 AM »
I dont know how many times you need to hear the same answer.

A micro event is the appearance and/or disappearance of existing and/or potential genetic traits through recombination of existing genetic code.

A macro event is the emergence of entirely new and more advanced features through innumerable completely new genetically defined traits.

If you still dont understand the difference, then I suggest you  sue your school or something like that.

Offline Hortlund

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #211 on: December 02, 2002, 08:31:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by davidpt40
Evolution has occurred (this is a real example).


...of micro evolution.

Offline Naso

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #212 on: December 02, 2002, 08:40:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
I dont know how many times you need to hear the same answer.

A micro event is the appearance and/or disappearance of existing and/or potential genetic traits through recombination of existing genetic code.

A macro event is the emergence of entirely new and more advanced features through innumerable completely new genetically defined traits.

If you still dont understand the difference, then I suggest you  sue your school or something like that.


Uh oh, becoming personal?? :D

Long time ago I was in the university, studing as paleonthologist, so it's not an argument so unknow for me (maybe little far in time, since I then changed in computer stuff for lack of money).

Maybe it's you that dont understand the question.

Maybe because you mix too much the traits and the genetic code.

They are not the same thing, you know?

Offline straffo

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #213 on: December 02, 2002, 08:43:10 AM »
I never heard of macro-evolution... all depend of your sampling frequence ...

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #214 on: December 02, 2002, 08:46:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naso
Uh oh, becoming personal?? :D

Long time ago I was in the university, studing as paleonthologist, so it's not an argument so unknow for me (maybe little far in time, since I then changed in computer stuff for lack of money).

Maybe it's you that dont understand the question.

Maybe because you mix too much the traits and the genetic code.

They are not the same thing, you know?


Nice attitude...

Genetic code is stored on one of the two strands of a DNA molecules as a linear, non-overlapping sequence of the nitrogenous bases Adenine (A), Guanine (G), Cytosine (C) and Thymine (T). These are the "alphabet" of letters that are used to write the "code words".

The genetic code consists of a sequence of three letter "words" (sometimes called 'triplets', sometimes called 'codons'), written one after another along the length of the DNA strand.
Each code word is a unique combination of three letters (like the ones shown above) that will eventually be interpreted as a single amino acid in a polypeptide chain. There are 64 code words possible from an 'alphabet' of four letters.

One of these code words, the 'start signal' begins all the sequences that code for amino acid chains. Three of these code words act as 'stop signals' that indicate that the message is over. All the other sequences code for specific amino acids.

Genetic traits are small parts of the phenotype of an organism, such as the red color seen in a rose.

Offline Hortlund

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #215 on: December 02, 2002, 08:47:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
I never heard of macro-evolution... all depend of your sampling frequence ...


Not really.

Offline bounder

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #216 on: December 02, 2002, 08:58:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
2% is (barely) the <> between human and chimps :D


Yeah, and there's a bigger difference of DNA between two chimps than between chimps and humans...work that one out.

You've got to sequence the entire genome, not just compare fragments. Its this fragmentary analysis that leads one to conclude that humans are related to bananas. (which is true, but we broke of from our yellow curvy cousins some time ago).

I'm an evolutionists, in that I accept that evolution is an emergent property of any iterative system.

But I get angry when I hear evolutionists denounce other theories (including creation) with dogma more worthy of a religious zealot. As believers in science they are not showing the open mindedness that is required of them.

The burden of proof is upon the scientists, and unlikely every to be found. It was Popper who said that all scientific theories are ultimately unprovable, merely more or less resistant to revision in light of new data. If a theory needs revision every time new data is incorporated, then it wasn't a evry good theory, but is getting better all the time.

Unfortunately, evolution is a largely uncontested theory (in scientific circle) and as such gets perhaps more credibility than it deserves for that reason alone

So let's not get carried away here. Evolution is a theory. It is a fact in the minds of those who prefer recieved wisdom, and are happy to accept fundamentalist scientists at their word.

What's missing IMO is a credible account of the creation from a scientific standpoint. All I have been able to find so far is material clearly intended to obfuscate the issue and confuse the non scientist (and outrage the scientist).

The account of the creation in the bible as the revealed word of god and therefore infallible is an appeal to authority and as such indamissable. Otherwise I could start quoting any book I liked to support my belief in the non-existence of God. Douglas Adams would be a good place to start.

Ultimately the creation argument rests on the argument for the existence of (a) God. Again, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence for God, but it's still just a theory... and don't come knocking with teleological, cosmological, ontological or even eschatological arguments. Those are all logically redundant.

A scientific approach to religion has been possible however, and to my mind it has been demonstrated that man's nature and biological predisposition give rise to the phenomenon of 'Gods' when faced with inexplicable events and 'voices' in the head.

Just ask the Duke of Edinburgh, who is a living God.

Offline Naso

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #217 on: December 02, 2002, 09:48:41 AM »
Steve.... first, dont see this discussion between me and you as a war, i am smiling while posting here, not waging war. :)

Your exposition of the DNA it's almost correct (with the exception that some triplet seem to relate with different ammino in the same time, but this is still a "frontier" in study), and we can go on expanding the concept.

A sequence of triplets instructing (using RNA messenger) the specific cellular structure to "build" or better assemble a polypeptide it's called gene.

There are large functional holes in a "chromosome" (hope it's correct translation in english), with unused sequences.

What is amaizing, now that we can sequentiate (sp.) the DNA, is that have been observed that the "active" genes in largely different form of life are very similar.

The combination of different genes, and, susprise, in different times of the growth can result in the great differences we observe in life.

Even the apparently vastly different plants and animals, share not only the same "construction set", but even a large number of genes are completely equal.

Now the traits:

As already observed centuries ago, there are multiple similarities between the anathomy of the living being.

theese similarities are stronger between some species and lesser between others, so it was easy to regroup the species in families, "and then was thassonomy".

It was'nt a fixed structure, since by further study some of the "determining" traits of some species were discovered as "evolutive convergence" (a real trap for thassonomy).

BTW the thassonomy has adapted to new discoveries, and it's still refining (thank to the aid of genetics, that it's a fine tuning tool).

A century (almost) ago, there were discovered strange bones of unknow animals, with a structures a lot different with the living ones.
After some try, and after discovering almost complete skeletons, the scratching head scientists had to admit that there were species that no longer live on this world, "and then comes the estinction".

Someone was astonished that in older layer of terrain there were some of the actual species missing, something like if some of the actual species did'nt existed before, "and then comes speciation (sp?)"

And then a speculative guy ask himself "what if...." maybe there's a mechanism that permit the dissapearing and birth of species.

Since this guy was observing birds of the same specie that showed to have developed differences in the shape of the beck (beak??) depending of the alimentation, he argued that this isolated birds were "adapted" to the alimentation available in the respective island.

The way this worked started a huge debate for those times, with someone stating that the adaption system was a positive feedback between the habits and the body structure (Lamark).
But this theory was discarded, since even by forcing an animal to act in a way theorically prone to start changes on the body structure, theese changes were'nt ereditary, not trasmissible to the successive generation. (here here, the science at work).

So there was a different mechanism, some scientist pointed at the "natural selection", very similar to the "artificial selection" that the human being is operating since some tenthousand years on the domesticated form of life.

What if the same pressure that human pose, by breeding the individual with the interesting caratheristics between them, and not allowing the others to breed, is almost the same method (or, better, again mechanism) that change "savage" species?

This what if (and the science is a "what if") seemed to be the better fitting answer to the problem, and it's still accepted as a good model.

Each new "transitional" specie that we find, it's a new clue about the good approx. of this theory, note the approximation term, since we are not speaking about a dogma.

And, there are a lot of transitional forms.

Now, we go on your position.

You are discussing (in a lawyer way ;) ) the commonly accepted theory, but still are'nt explaining your position.

Maybe do you believe that now and then some supernatural power play with the bricks He created, and build a new race from nothing?
Or that the same supernatural Being created the bricks, set the rules, and let the "experiment" go on?

Notice that none of the 2 options are in contrast with the evolution scientific theory.

But both are a different "religious" interpretation of the selection, or, better, "religious" answers to the why that evolution pose.

On a final note a lot of scientists are religious, and I dont see contraddiction in this.

Offline Kieran

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #218 on: December 02, 2002, 09:58:50 AM »
Bounder-

That is a completely fair and level-headed assessment. Thanks.

Offline midnight Target

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #219 on: December 02, 2002, 10:02:10 AM »
Sorry Steve, missed your question way back when.

Those pictures were of Foraminifarin fossils that show a gradual progression from one species to another. They were taken fron ocean floor core samples in the South Pacific.

I can't believe this issue is gonna go 400 posts again!!!

Offline H. Godwineson

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #220 on: December 02, 2002, 10:07:43 AM »
I've been away for a week, so I've lost track of the topics on the bbs.  So what do I find upon my return?  Another topic on evolution!

Please, God, not again!

Regards, Shuckins

Offline myelo

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #221 on: December 02, 2002, 10:11:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Show me one case of observed macro evolution.


How about two? (Later you indicated that "macro evolution" was the development of a new species, so that's the examples I'll use).

1. Rapid development of a new different species of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the creature to the island.

--Stanley, S., 1979. Macroevolution: Pattern and Process, San Francisco, W.H. Freeman and Company. p. 41.

2. Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which formed after they were isolated less than 4000 years ago from the parent stock, in Lake Nagubago.

--Mayr, E., 1970. Populations, Species, and Evolution, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press. p. 348.
myelo
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Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #222 on: December 02, 2002, 10:14:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by myelo
How about two? (Later you indicated that "macro evolution" was the development of a new species, so that's the examples I'll use).

1. Rapid development of a new different species of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the creature to the island.

--Stanley, S., 1979. Macroevolution: Pattern and Process, San Francisco, W.H. Freeman and Company. p. 41.

2. Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which formed after they were isolated less than 4000 years ago from the parent stock, in Lake Nagubago.

--Mayr, E., 1970. Populations, Species, and Evolution, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press. p. 348.

Well, can you be a bit more specific than that?

Offline myelo

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« Reply #223 on: December 02, 2002, 10:19:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Please, God, not again!


I'm sorry, simply appealing to a supernatural power is not sufficent for this thread. You will need at least 500 words of argument, complete with references, and numerous repetitive  follow-up posts. :)
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Offline H. Godwineson

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« Reply #224 on: December 02, 2002, 10:31:47 AM »
But I've already DONE THAT!

Regards, Shuckins :D