Author Topic: How many here believe in evolution?  (Read 15628 times)

Offline Hortlund

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #195 on: December 02, 2002, 07:48:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by myelo
Then you don’t understand biologic evolution. It is the change in inherited traits in a population over time. Specifically, it is the change in frequency of alleles (gene variations) from one generation to the next.

Observed examples of evolution include the development of corn with high sugar content, the development of a chihuahua from a wolf, and the development of bacteria resistant to certain antibiotics. In each case, the changes are due to the change in frequency of genes within the population. This is, by definition, evolution.

Evolution is a theory and a fact. Just like gravity is a theory and a fact. There have been several theories debated over the years to explain how gravity works. But this debate doesn’t change the fact that if you jump off a cliff, you gonna hit the ground. And the debate over specific theories to explain the process of evolution doesn’t change the fact that evolution occurs.


It seems more like you are the one who doesnt understand the difference between micro variations/micro evolution/genetic variation (whatever you want to call it) and macro evolution.

I thought I explained it in my post. But I'll try again.

A micro event is the appearance and/or disappearance of existing and/or potential genetic traits through recombination of existing genetic code.

A macro event on the other hand is the emergence of entirely new and more advanced features through innumerable completely new genetically defined traits.

Proponents of evolutionism often fail to note the important difference between these two, simply calling them both “evolution,” and thereby deliberately blurring the distinction between them.

Genetic variation is a common phenomenon, perpetually manifesting itself as extant dominant and recessive genetic traits “appear” and “vanish” in successive generations within a population of organisms. A population’s adaptation through genetic variation is as much a fact of biological life as are genes themselves. Though some evolutionists like to call this phenomenon “micro-evolution,” the variations dictated by any gene pool are neither “new” traits, nor qualitative “changes” in the gene pool (as required for “macro-evolution”); their potential is already well-defined within the DNA of the population’s gene pool, and all possible changes (i.e., variations) within that population are limited specifically to those inherent traits.


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As for your examples, genetically modified corn, the chihuahua and the wolf (?) etc, do you think it is correct to hold these up as examples of evolution? I mean, in fact they are nothing other than planned, controlled alterations performed by scientists/humans. If anyting they show that intelligent thought is neccessary for such development.  

Show me one case of observed macro evolution.

Offline Naso

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #196 on: December 02, 2002, 07:54:56 AM »
Steve (Hortlund), what you define as "big change", or completely new genetic traits.

Quote
A micro event is the appearance and/or disappearance of existing and/or potential genetic traits through recombination of existing genetic code.

A macro event on the other hand is the emergence of entirely new and more advanced features through innumerable completely new genetically defined traits.


a change of 2% of the genetic code it's a macro or a micro event?

please answer.

Offline Hortlund

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #197 on: December 02, 2002, 08:01:36 AM »
Macro.

But it is wrong to ask a question like that since you have to observe the specific case in question. There could be some cases where a 2% change in genetic variation is not considered a macro event. It all depends on what species we are talking about.  

My guess here is that you are aiming at the genetical difference between humans and monkeys maybe?

Offline straffo

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #198 on: December 02, 2002, 08:03:06 AM »
How many micro-evolution you need to have one macro evolution ?

Offline straffo

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« Reply #199 on: December 02, 2002, 08:06:13 AM »
2% is (barely) the <> between human and chimps :D

Offline lazs2

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #200 on: December 02, 2002, 08:07:12 AM »
Hmm... I don't know but... in my short life I have seen at least three major theories on what happened to the dino's and at least that many on evolution of man and the "discovery" of at least three ancient men that didn't fit any of the theories..  I have also heard scientists change their mind 5 times on weather or not milk is good for me and people still catch colds.  I take it all with a grain of salt... and why not?  it doesn't matter a whit.


we may be monkeys tho because i seen an experiment where they gave monkeys access to the internet and let em on BB's.. the monkeys got frustrated and pasted in cartooons from lefty internet sites because they lacked the ability to think.
lazs

Offline Naso

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #201 on: December 02, 2002, 08:08:27 AM »
So, it's not the genetic that determine the difference, but the shape, external or visual traits.

In this case you can define macro the difference between different breed of dogs, while micro the difference between a Hyctiosaur and a dolphin.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #202 on: December 02, 2002, 08:08:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
How many micro-evolution you need to have one macro evolution ?


It is impossible to answer that question. It all depends on what the specific traits are in the new organism, compared to the traits in the old organism.

Offline Hortlund

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #203 on: December 02, 2002, 08:13:24 AM »
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Originally posted by Naso
So, it's not the genetic that determine the difference, but the shape, external or visual traits.

In this case you can define macro the difference between different breed of dogs, while micro the difference between a Hyctiosaur and a dolphin.


You are approaching this question from the wrong side and with the wrong attitude :)

It is the genetic differences between the old and the new organism that determine whether it is a macro evolution that has taken place or not. What is required for a macro evolution is, to put it in laymans terms, that a new species has arrived. The answer to your question is really in my previous post.

Offline straffo

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #204 on: December 02, 2002, 08:14:00 AM »
it make me think that your demonstration was somewhat flawed :D

Offline Naso

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #205 on: December 02, 2002, 08:14:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Hmm... I don't know but... in my short life I have seen at least three major theories on what happened to the dino's and at least that many on evolution of man and the "discovery" of at least three ancient men that didn't fit any of the theories..  I have also heard scientists change their mind 5 times on weather or not milk is good for me and people still catch colds.  I take it all with a grain of salt... and why not?  it doesn't matter a whit.


THIS is the science, to not stop, always look around, never rest, almost what we do flying AH :)

Be ready to changes, science dont have to stay equal, it's NOT a religion, and CANNOT be compared to.

Offline Eagler

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #206 on: December 02, 2002, 08:18:38 AM »
wow

thanks, I think this thread has cured my insomnia :)
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Offline Naso

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #207 on: December 02, 2002, 08:18:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
You are approaching this question from the wrong side and with the wrong attitude :)

It is the genetic differences between the old and the new organism that determine whether it is a macro evolution that has taken place or not. What is required for a macro evolution is, to put it in laymans terms, that a new species has arrived. The answer to your question is really in my previous post.


But just a some post above you answered:

Quote

It is impossible to answer that question. It all depends on what the specific traits are in the new organism, compared to the traits in the old organism.


And:

Quote
But it is wrong to ask a question like that since you have to observe the specific case in question. There could be some cases where a 2% change in genetic variation is not considered a macro event. It all depends on what species we are talking about.


So, it's the genetic, or the trait?

Can you decide and be consistent with the decision? :p

Offline straffo

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #208 on: December 02, 2002, 08:25:22 AM »
Spot on Naso :D

Offline davidpt40

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #209 on: December 02, 2002, 08:29:00 AM »
Mutations are the only way to add new nucleotides into DNA.  Everything else, natural selection, selective mating, gene flow, genetic drift, are all 'editing' processes.  Nearly all mutations are either harmful or neutral.  But rarely, very rarely, a mutation of a nucleotide will come along and change around the structure of a (polypeptide I think) so that it codes for a new protein.

So lets look at this in a real-life situation.  An insect, lets say the potato beetle, gets a mutation.  This mutation makes the potato beetle grow slower than the other beetles.  But, it also allows the beetle to digest certain chemicals.  So when farmers crop-dust their fields, this potato beetle survives while the other insects die off.  Evolution has occurred (this is a real example).

This is why farmers must use different types of pesticides in conjunction, and its also why the HIV virus is able to defeat many different drugs.