"I've still got a bullet in my leg" - Client

[lazs2]

MT.. I might even be older thatn you..  If not then... there probly isn't much help for you.

as for the crime figures... over 40% of gun homicides are black on black or black perps..  this is not racist and it is a valid statistic... It also means that if you took the black element out of the U.S. homicide rate then you would have rates that were very comparable to the british ones... or....

are you saying that if you removed all blacks from the U.S. that the poor white and other ethnicities would take up the slack so far as homicides?  I don't think you can say that.   I do think it is a black problem for whatever reasons and to ignore the fact is to help no one.

I didn't do ther math but if y0u are saying that it is an economic problem unrelated to race then I think you are way off... In order for 18% of the population to commit 40% (some say closer to 50% if you factor in the unknowns) of the homicides then you would have a huge group of poor blacks that were all very poor.   What percentage of poor whites commit homicides?  I have heard that there is no correlation between economics and homicide for whites.    I bet poor whites commit less murders than middle class whites.
lazs

[midnight Target]

Here are some other numbers:

Unemployment - 5.7%
Black Unemployment - 9.8%

There are also significant gaps between white and black workers when it comes to wages. According to Economic Policy Institute's 1998 "State of Working America," the 1997 hourly wage for white women was $10.02, compared to $8.49 for African-American women. The gap's worse than in 1989, when the white female wage was $9.84, while the black female wage was $8.76. College-educated African-American women saw their wages drop 3.2 percent in the last five years, while white women who were college graduates saw their wages grow by 4.4 percent.


White men earned $18.20 an hour in 1997, compared to $12.92 for African-American men. Overall, men saw their wage levels drop between 1989 to 1997, with the wages of African-American men dropping more precipitously. But among college-educated men, there was slight wage growth, with black men's wages growing twice as rapidly as white men's from 1989 to 1997. The gap remains among college graduates, though, with white men earning $21.45 to the $16.53 that black men earn. Further, wage growth among white men was far more pronounced than that of black men in the past five years, when white men's wages grew by 2.5 percent, and black men's by just 0.1 percent.

The point is, there are other reasons to explain the crime rates. It is NOT a genetic problem with a whole race of people, but a problem developed through years of being treated poorly and the degradation of the black family unit. No doubt there is high crime in Black eighborhoods, just don't tell me its due to skin color.

[StSanta]

Saw a documentary about a Johannesburg SWAT team.

Relaxed, laid back types. Dinnae wear all the cool black gear the US SWAT teams did.

However, they see much, much more action. The film crew stayed a week, during which there were several shoot outs.
Gangs were carjacking, using AK-74s and usually killing the driver and passenger, often seemingly for fun.

They responded to one of these - there was a big shootout and three carjackers were killed. Scary to see the disorganized murderers run like hares while the SWAT team did their best to protect bystanders while at the same time kill the murderers. Several were killed.

US SWAT teams service seemed like a picknick compared to what these guys had to face - each day :/

[Rude]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Careful what you call truth.

Factor in economics and race makes no difference.

That statement is incorrect....modify it to read "less difference" and I'll buy it.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Rude
That statement is incorrect....modify it to read "less difference" and I'll buy it.

If you mean that there are other factors besides economics I agree, my statement was simplistic in that regard.

If you mean that race (genetics of a race of people) has a part to play in this, then nope, can't go there.

[lazs2]

MT... I don't see anything in your numbers that would explain the huge difference in homicide rates between the races.   I don't believe that being poor makes youi a murderer in any case..  I don't believe it makes other races murder.   No... It has to be something else... economics can't be the major factor.   More murders are commited by the middle class in other races and.... I bet that a lot of the black homicides are committed by blacks with far higher than average incomes even if they don't declare said income to the IRS.

to simply ignore such a huge difference is like saying that whites are every bit as good athletes and that some sort of economic situation keeps em from doing better...   I don't buy it... It may be despair from living in a country that they feel like outsiders in ... who knows?   It may even be a racial trait like more testosterone... I don't really care what the reason is but I certainly won't accept your glib lefty PC explanation.  

What do you think the main cause is and why?
lazs

[miko2d]

midnight Target: So it would be wrong to call it "African American Gun Crime" wouldn't it. The descriptive adjective could read "Poor American" or "Disenfranchised American" or .. you fill in the blank.

 Absolutely - saying that without clarifications would imply that AAs are somehow more "evil" than other races - and there are no indications that "moral values" are genetically encoded. Actually, temperament like impulse control or level of aggressivness is genetically determined to a high degree but not nearly enough to account for huge discrepancy of crime rates.

 But saying "Poor" or "Disenfranchised" is also very wrong as those are mostly secondary effects of other factors and when everything else is being held equal, being poor has little influence on antisocial behavior.

 What has a huge effect on antisocial behavior is level of intelligence. Less intelligent people are more likely to be antisocial as well as poor, "disenfranchised", etc. - for obvious reasons. And we are not talking about corellation here but easily understood causal relationsip.

 Since human races noticeably differ in distribution of intelligence (15+ IQ points), realising that and coming up with practical explanations and solutions would dispell a lot of rasist stereotypes.

Saying we have an African American crime problem today is no different than saying there was an Irish crime problem in the 1910's, or an Italian crime problem in the 1920's, or a Jewish crime problem in the 1930's.

 It is very different. The irish, italian and jewish organised crime was highly publicised, but the numbers and character of crime were much different than what is going on in black communities now. Those groups were marginalised by discrimination, not inborn lack of abilities. The former can be remedied.

lazs2: I have heard that there is no correlation between economics and homicide for whites.

 Thatd depends wether intelligence was factored out. Blackd do not really differ from whites or other races in that respect though the total effect can be aggravated by concentration.

It is NOT a genetic problem with a whole race of people...

 Of course it is. And it explains matters much better. So many groups were discriminated against in US - practically every single one besides WASPs. So many countries experience problems - but nowhere similar to Africa.

 miko

[lazs2]

Ok... factor intelegence.   I haven't seen those figures but it would have to come up with some kind of profile like... "people with x IQ or lower and X yearly income have X amount of homicides per 100,000 regardless of race.   I don't think that will do it... I think blacks will still come out at the very top of the charts.   Besides.... how do you regulate intelegence?
lazs

[Thrawn]

Cripes, enough popsicle footing around.  Who here thinks the problems are caused by the genetics that make them black people?

[UserName]

Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... factor intelegence.  

  Besides.... how do you regulate intelegence?
lazs

heh

[midnight Target]

IQ tests are racially biased too.

Those groups were marginalised by discrimination, not inborn lack of abilities. The former can be remedied.

Miko, that is pseudo intellectual crap. I don't understand how anyone with the brains you seem to possess can still feel this way. So either you are trolling, or I was wrong in my assessment of you. Do you think that Blacks have NOT been marginalized by discrimination?


 

Lazs - What do you think the main cause is and why?

Not sure Lazs, maybe anger, frustration, the assurance that they will certainly get a raw deal so "why not". The degradation of the  family through poor male role modeling. But all of those things are really symptoms aren't they? How exactly would you react if you knew you were not going to be treated fairly in most areas of life?

Or maybe the numbers you quote are just not indicitive of the facts. Here is an interesting read:
Black Crime

[Animal]

I dont know why you guys bother.
I would love to see miko, lazs and some others have a discussion with some professors I have met.

Some of the brightest minds in the fields of genetics, psychology, and sociology would laugh by reading the posts these people make

[Thrawn]

I'm affraid I have to ignore all your arguements from now on Animal, as you have an inborn lack of ablilities.

This actually becomes obvious when you are compare your life with a random white guy...let's say...lazs.

Animal:

student pilot - check
scuba diver - check
well versed in philosophy, literatue, current events - check
hottie girlfriend - check
dad's corvet - ?

Lazs:

silly servant - check
shoots cans - check
hasn't read a paper in 30 years - check
bitterly devorced- check
tractor - ?

I think this shows Animals inadequacy compared to a white guy.

[lord dolf vader]

in college one of my best friends was a s.a. ex commando. he was in some war outside southafrica using all american ammo grenades anti tank stuff. after the war he had to walk/hitch home as his govt was done with him .  soldier practice had expected deaths somthing like 6% didnt make it as in live.

he got home and they drafted him for the civil police . the same body i think you saw. used all military hardwar and had a 6 month life expectancy at the time . aparthide was ending .


he opted for graduate school. name was johan betal. one of the coolest guys i ever new . had war stories that would curl your toes.

[funkedup]

Originally posted by Thrawn
I'm affraid I have to ignore all your arguements from now on Animal, as you have an inborn lack of ablilities.

This actually becomes obvious when you are compare your life with a random white guy...let's say...lazs.

Animal:

student pilot - check
scuba diver - check
well versed in philosophy, literatue, current events - check
hottie girlfriend - check
dad's corvet - ?

Lazs:

silly servant - check
shoots cans - check
hasn't read a paper in 30 years - check
bitterly devorced- check
tractor - ?

I think this shows Animals inadequacy compared to a white guy.

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