"I've still got a bullet in my leg" - Client

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

Originally posted by SKurj
he told stories of kids running around with AK's(his words).  They didn't always have any ammo, but you never knew..

I can assure you, if they were running around with me, we were never short of ammo!
-SW

[lazs2]

hmm... seems that it is not intelegence since... the brightest proffessors are black...  soo... back to square one.  Not economics and not intelegence.  

MT votes for anger and frustration or... the way those are handled?

I wouldn't want to be in a place where I was, or even felt that I was being dicriminated against.. there was a time when I reveled in it but not anymore.  I really can see how that would lead to anger and violence but... again... not my problem till it affects my neighborhood and if it ever does... I want to be armed.

I let a pilots licence laps 30 years ago... I have flown ultralights and raced cars... all my college is night stuff so probly doesn't count... my daddy never had a corvette but I built my own out of a wreck when I was 22.   I have been a contractor and have had a girlfriend or two to go along with an ex wife or so... My current girlfriend is working out nicely.   I have a fair skill level with a lot of tools and have built both cars that I am driving.   Did I mention that my daddy never owned a corvette and that..... I never got all weepy about it but then.... I never took any philosophy courses so that may be the problem.

I have hired black guys and worked with em... I don't care about em one way or the other.   I bet I am less of a bigot than you are thrawn cause I am honest about it.   I don't date black women cause I don't find em attractive unless they are allmost white.  I don't drive in black neitghborhoods or pretend that "negroes like me".
lazs

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Thrawn

Animal:

student pilot - check
scuba diver - check
well versed in philosophy, literatue, current events - check
hottie girlfriend - check
dad's corvet - ?

This has got to be the gayest post ever.

[StSanta]

LOL

I prefer beating my own chest to someone elses

[lazs2]

yeah.. he kinda sucked me into that one.  My point was that people are people and everyone has his accomplishments and foibles.   If you want an unbiassed view (in alphabetical order and referenced) of my faults.....simply ask the aforementioned former wives and girlfriends.  or thrawn.
lazs

[H. Godwineson]

Povery plays some part in the proliferation in Black Crime, but not the major part.  The great majority of African-Americans in the U.S. have, throughout our history, been poor.  However, their society has not always been violent.  One of the oddities seldom discussed in these debates is the rising violent crime rate during decades when a large percentage of the Black population was moving into the lower and upper middle classes.

How does one explain this?  The answer lies in the growing drug culture in American society.  Most inner-city gangs are deeply involved in it.  The violence associated with drugs is more than just a struggle for turf or a share of the market.  Some murders are committed as revenge for some previous act of violence or disrespect.  A way of saving "face," as it were.  Much of it is done just for thrills or kicks.

My home town, although it has a population of only 3,500, is a prime example.  During the '50s and '60s, despite the effects of discrimination and segregation, it was a relatively peaceful place to live.  There were jobs available to any who wished to work.

But by the early '70s some of the local business began to go under.  The middle class, both black and white, started to desert the town.  Law enforcement grew lax.  Drug use began to spread, not only among the poor but also through the ranks of the remaining middle class.  The streets that were filled with black and white shoppers and partiers on Friday and Saturday nights grew deserted because of the fear of violence.  

The causes were only indirectly linked to poverty.  These events happened because of a change in the town's cultural more's.

Shuckins

[midnight Target]

I respect anyone who has succeeded in life, especially when the circumstances made success difficult.

[midnight Target]

Shuckins, I agree completely.

Drugs have been the key. One of the reasons "Black Crime" statistics are IMHO skewed is due to drug law enforcement. Look at the article I posted earlier. A black person is more likely to be caught, convicted and incarcerated for possesion, even though we know most users are not Black. This increases the Black population in our prisons, and in a vicious circle increases the police presence in Black communities and on and on and on.

[Samm]

Originally posted by midnight Target
IQ tests are racially biased too.
 

Yep, just like SATs, they're obviously biased in favor of Laotians and other people of south east asian descent .

[Animal]

Lazs, who said anything about black professors?

[lazs2]

Ok... so now it's not inteligence or poverty.... it's.... drugs.   Black people are somehow more suceptible to the effects of drugs or... they become more murderous on drugs?  it's all so confusing.

animal... good point.   I assumed that a black professor would have more insight on black culture.   I do realize that there are certainly a lot of white professors that belive they have the answer... they sound good when their audience is a bunch of 18 year olds but when they publish... well... let's just say that I haven't seen anything that explains it to me but...

why don't you ask em and then you can explain to the rest of us who are not seeming to be able to come up with an answer...  The latest is that somehow.... blacks that are stupid and poor are more murderous when on drugs than white people who are stupid and poor and on drugs.   Don't sound plausible to me so maybe you can ferret out the real reason from your learned proffessors who no doubt have vast experiance in these types of studies.  
lazs

[ra]

Black American social ills are mostly a result of the Great Society.  In 1965 black illegitimacy rates were 25%.  Now they are 70%.  Patrick Moynihan has all but admitted that the Democrats' meddling with infinitely complex social forces has been a disaster.  End it, don't mend it.

ra

[miko2d]

lazs2: Ok... factor intelegence.   I haven't seen those figures but it would have to come up with some kind of profile like... "people with x IQ or lower and X yearly income have X amount of homicides per 100,000 regardless of race.   I don't think that will do it...

 They will in almost all income/intelligence groups.

 The situation will be somewhat worse at the bottom - but mostly due to effects of concentration. That would be cultural circumstance - not an indication of ingerent "evilness".

 100 dumb people living in a community of 1000 regular people would be much less likely to get into trouble than the same 100 dumb people living alone like it happens in inner-city gettoes.


how do you regulate intelegence?

 What do you mean by regulate? You can screw it up by wrong nutrition or using drugs/alcohol during pregnancy.
 There are no methods of raising it by a measurable amount - whatever the expence. Some methods (Head Start) add 6-10 IQ points to young children but by the age of 17 the difference between them and a control group goes away, so they actually accelerate it rather than add to it.

 What you can do is create an environment where dumb people are less likely to cause problems and create jobs they can perform, etc.

 BTW, while most of the antisocial people are dumb, only a minor fraction of dumb people are anti-social. That is very important to remember.

 Just because over 50% of criminals are black, only a very small fraction of black are criminals.


Do you think that Blacks have NOT been marginalized by discrimination?

 Sure they were. That does not mean that the discrepancies we see today are mostlythe result of discrimination that ended two generations ago. There are studies that allow to isolate the effects - good studies done by conciensious people. Not just in US. Not just in places where blacks are minority or are not represented, etc.

So either you are trolling, or I was wrong in my assessment of you.

 Unfortunately I am not trolling. You are welcome to examine the same studies/information I did and find flaws in them. I would be only to happy to learn that the problem is solvable. I have no desire for my children to live in a racially-torn world. I do not believe it would be good for them even if theyw ere guaranteed the role of "oppressors" - let alone victims.
 I've done a lot of homework on that topic. I tried to bring extensive descriptions of the studies and results but never got an argument on the vurtues of the data presented - just got called names. So I leave it to the people to read the books/articles. I could give you the references if you have trouble finding them - which is highly unlikely. Whether you agree with my point now or not, it would never hurt to know the arguments of the opposing side. You would have to spend time though - few thousand pages worth.

 If you list a specific example how a study can be skewed, I would be happy to examine it. So far I can see one clear statement:

midnight Target: IQ tests are racially biased too.

 Not the ones I am referring too. You do not try to discredit physics based on incorrect theories that physicists believed 150 years ago.

 Care to name a kind of study that could was/have been done over the last 50 years and how it could have been biased and I will respond.


 The link you've provided is not that convincing. The author does not use any numbers - just makes a hypothetical point and discards the whole issue. Yes, there may be racial bias - but in may be eliminated. Was it? Yes, the drug-posession may be more skewed. But by how much? Were the results used in the studies he mentions without such adjustments? Where are the references?
 What about murders ? Murder Victims - hard to skewed race statistics of a murder victim, isnt'it? Children out of wedlock?

 The degradation of the family through poor male role modeling.

 And you think those can be unrelated to intelligence?


Animal: I would love to see miko, lazs and some others have a discussion with some professors I have met.

 Since it is not likely, would you care to direct us to any books or articles those esteemed fellows produced on the relavant subject? Barring that, would you ask them what reading they would recommend?
 The guys I've read were quite accomplished academicians too.


H. Godwineson: The great majority of African-Americans in the U.S. have, throughout our history, been poor.

 Lack of equality and social mobility kept capable blacks living among less capable ones. Also, there were no corrupting government handouts. Once that situation got corrected, capable blacks left.

Black American social ills are mostly a result of the Great Society. In 1965 black illegitimacy rates were 25%. Now they are 70%.

 But white's are "only" 36% - how come such a discrepancy? So it can't be just welfare.

 miko

[midnight Target]

Here is even more to spin yer head Lazs.

From

This Article

It should be noted that some studies have suggested that rates of black homicide and other violence are no greater than those of similarly situated (i.e., economically deprived) whites. See, Brandon S. Centerwall, "Race, Socioeconomic Status and Domestic Homicide, Atlanta, 1971-72," 74 AM. J. PUB. HLTH. 813, 815 (1984) (reporting results of research and discussing prior studies). See also Darnell F. Hawkins, "Inequality, Culture, and Interpersonal Violence," 12 HEALTH AFFAIRS 80 (1993).

and

(historian Roger Lane) emphasizes industrialization as a violence-reductive factor in the Western World: the Industrial Revolution required and produced disciplined, orderly work forces.

and (lazs will like this part)

. As we shall see, urban blacks actually have far less gun ownership than either whites in general or rural blacks. Yet the gun murder rate among young black urban males is 9.3 times higher than among young black rural males. Lois A. Fingerhut, et al., "Firearm and Non-Firearm Homicide Among Persons 15 Through 19 Years of Age: Differences by Level of Urbanization, U.S. 1979-89," 267 Journal of the American Medical Ass'n. 3048, 3049, Table 1 (1992). Obviously, neither guns nor race can account for the fact of homicide being so much less among the well-armed rural African-American population than among their relatively poorly armed urban compeers. The obvious lesson is that, whatever their race, the small fraction of (highly aberrant) people who want to murder find guns regardless of how prevalent guns may be in their general community.

and just to completely novelize this post, here is another possible reason for "Urban" crime rates.

Historically, disproprotionate black homicide rates may be attributed to the virtual exclusion of African-Americans from major sectors of employment during the post-Civil War period which continued through the mid-20th Century. Lane's seminal research has documented the role of racism in both promoting murder by African-Americans and excluding them from the violence-reductive effects of industrial employment:

In the post-Civil War period though black murder rates were high, they were far lower than today ... and lower than those of their immigrant Irish competitors while Italian murder rates [when Italians began immigrating] soared well above those of blacks.
[A]fter the [Civil W]ar both unions and employers, all over the country, combined to drive [blacks out of high paying trades]... [F]actory work, all across the country was considered too good for black workers. [Black homicide is] another social-psychological [deprivation that] resulted from black exclusion from the regimenting effects of industrial and bureaucratic work. These effects are shown in the relatively rapid decline in homicide rates among Irish and Italian immigrants, two other ethnic groups with high levels of preindustrial violence, as their integration into the industrial work force demanded unprecedented levels of sober, disciplined, orderly behavior, which carried over into their private lives.

[Later when they were] no longer shut out of the urban-industrial revolution, blacks were instead let in too late. During the 1940s and 1950s blacks in effect were piped aboard a sinking ship, welcomed into the urban industrial age just as that age was dying, with industrial cities losing population and jobs.

[In late 19th Century Philadelphia] blacks consistently outscored their competitors on written tests of all kinds... Even the white press generally agreed that black civil servants (and, a historian would add, blacks as a group) were overqualified for the [low level jobs to which they were confined] in this era, as a result of a general refusal to promote them to positions where they might have authority of any kind over white workers. [Blacks were acutely aware of the need for education and struggled heroically to attain it. B]lack literacy in the city soared from roughly 20 percent to 80 percent over the final thirty years of the [19th C]entury ... [Philadelphia blacks included doctors, lawyers and other professionals -- graduates of Harvard, Yale and the University of Pennsylvania. But] that was no guarantee that they could make a living. As whites would not hire them and blacks could not afford them, licensed black physicians were found working as bellhops.... In the early 20th Century not one of Philadelphia' black attorneys could make a living through his law practice alone.

The lesson blacks learned from this was that for them education had no economic value. (NOTE: the quotes just given are taken from Lane's MURDER IN AMERICA, pp. 181-85, 298-300 and 327, as well as Roger Lane, "Black Philadelphia, Then and Now" 108 THE PUBLIC INTEREST 35, 42 (Fall, Summer, 1992) and Roger Lane, ROOTS OF VIOLENCE IN BLACK PHILADELPHIA: 1860-1900 (Cambridge, Harvard U. Press, 1986).

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Hortlund
This has got to be the gayest post ever.

I can't help myself, I find that I am attracked to Animal.  

I ment as sort of tongue in cheek, Hortland.

I think that Lazs is getting screwed up by causality.  

Statement - Black people are involved in more per capita homocides then other races.

Conclusion - Genetics in black people are the cause of this problem.

I would like to see him prove this.

It's a simplistic argument that ignores economic, historical issues (such as decades of out right segragation) and the insititutional racism that surround these people.