Author Topic: 152 ? (Read 5969 times)

wetrat · « **Reply #60 on:** January 02, 2003, 01:49:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SOB
Gatr,

Like with any other plane in the game, if you feel there's something wrong, and have reliable data to prove it, HTC will listen.

SOB

Not so, SOB. A month or two ago, Duedel had a good post about the 152, pointed out most of the things that are wrong with our 152. He had LW charts about plane specs; my memory fails me, but our model either had a secondary wep system, or didn't have wing tanks. This was all relevant data, and HTC did not listen.

Furious · « **Reply #61 on:** January 02, 2003, 02:21:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by wetrat
...This was all relevant data, and HTC did not listen.

Prove it.

Just because Pyro did not jump into the thread begging forgiveness for such an afront to the LW contingent does not mean it was not heard.

It may have been ignored. The information that was posted may not be in alignment with whatever docs Pyro used to design the FM. Or Pyro may be testing it and withholding comment until he is finished. Or whatever.

...the point being is that the above quote is a whiny roadkill statement.

thanks.

F.

Wilbus · « **Reply #62 on:** January 02, 2003, 03:32:05 PM »

Sure that wasn't me Wetrat? Think I've posted most charts needed to see what's wrong. Maybe Duedel did too, missed his post though.

Rude · « **Reply #63 on:** January 02, 2003, 03:57:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
IMO the sequence of events is more like this:

1. Player feels something is wrong with, oh lets say the damage model for GVs.

2. Player makes lots of tests in the DA.

3. Player compares results of tests in DA with historical records and concludes that there is a difference between historical records and effects in game.

4. Player posts his findings on BB.

5. Fanbois appear, starting to ridicule player. Player is given funny names, some suggest that the player should try another game instead of whining.

6. Player gets frustrated. Asks fanbois if there is anything wrong with the tests the player made, or if the historical records are wrong.

7. Fanbois continue to ridicule player, completely ignoring the subject for players concern.

8. Player realizes BB might not be the best way to get the attention to the problem, so he mails his questions regarding the GV damage model to HTC.

9 Time passes without any answer either on the BB or via mail.

10. Player posts again on the BB, pointing out the dissimilarity between history and game.

11. Fanbois appear again to redicule player. More this time. Player is mentioned in a special thread by one of the fanbois.

Well...maybe I missed some step, but basically there you have it.

Isn't there a gameplay forum for issues such as you speak of?

Hortlund · « **Reply #64 on:** January 02, 2003, 04:00:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Rude
Isn't there a gameplay forum for issues such as you speak of?

Dont even go there Rude.

Wilbus · « **Reply #65 on:** January 02, 2003, 04:45:37 PM »

Maxtor? Seen the actual FW charts of it? If not, then you can't really say it is right or wrong. Where the plane really is wrong is above 35k where the GM1 was set in.

HTC has removed the 30k+ charts from the webpage, why I don't know but it has been done thus you can't see it anymore. The Ta152H-1 in AH is pretty right when it comes to speed (not climb) bellow 35k. Above 35k it is pretty much worse then it actually was, either because of no GM1 modelled in AH at all or very undermodelled GM1. It could give out 410 hp extra with a 100 g/s consumption. It could also be run at 60 g/s and 150 g/s.

100 g/s was the most usual.

And yes, why is it perked? P51B has the same top speed at almost exactly the same alt (35k) but it maneuvers far better and accelerates far better.

Wlfgng · « **Reply #66 on:** January 02, 2003, 04:54:43 PM »

it was perked so we wouldn't see an arena full of them...

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #67 on:** January 02, 2003, 04:57:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
IMO the sequence of events is more like this:

1. Player feels something is wrong with, oh lets say the damage model for GVs.

Alright

Quote

2. Player makes lots of tests in the DA.

You've strayed already. Step two is to come to the BBS and post about how screwed up he thinks the damage model is. This is met with a "back it up". The poster then does or doesn't do the tests.

Quote

3. Player compares results of tests in DA with historical records and concludes that there is a difference between historical records and effects in game.
4. Player posts his findings on BB.

Straying again here. The player posts that he has "evidence" that the damage model is porked citing a .ahf film and an anecdotal story from WW2 that he heard about from his third cousin. Then states that HTC should fix it or he'll quit

Quote

5. Fanbois appear, starting to ridicule player. Player is given funny names, some suggest that the player should try another game instead of whining.

This occurs somewhere between the 7th and 8th time the poster posts the exact same thing.... stating the exact same things.... seldomely with any level of charm. Of course, the "fanboi" term isn't limited to people that ridicule the player, its thrown out to anyone that even disagrees with the findings.

Quote

6. Player gets frustrated. Asks fanbois if there is anything wrong with the tests the player made, or if the historical records are wrong.

Yes, it always gets here. The innocent victim of the evil fanboi horde. This poor individual always has the data to back up what they say and never insults everyone and their mother prior to saying it. No, this is not the community reacting... it is fanbois hunting.

Quote

7. Fanbois continue to ridicule player, completely ignoring the subject for players concern.

This should actually read "player feels that he wasn't sufficiently heard so he should say it louder and more obnoxiously... player then wonders why he gets an even worse reception the 10th time around"

Quote

8. Player realizes BB might not be the best way to get the attention to the problem, so he mails his questions regarding the GV damage model to HTC.

As opposed to posting it in the Aircraft and Vehicles forum... and completely refusing to present the data in a non-combative format.

Quote

9 Time passes without any answer either on the BB or via mail.

10. Player posts again on the BB, pointing out the dissimilarity between history and game.

Once again, building on the good will expressed in the previous posts... except now its war.

Quote

11. Fanbois appear again to redicule player. More this time. Player is mentioned in a special thread by one of the fanbois.

My God! This explains ever WOW post to date! Innocent victims simply trying to make the game better for everyone... by insulting everyone... and demanding everything... then threatening to quit.

Quote

Well...maybe I missed some step, but basically there you have it.

I think your missing a whole lot more than that.

AKDejaVu

Hortlund · « **Reply #68 on:** January 02, 2003, 05:18:34 PM »

AK...seriously, why are you all over my back on this one?

The sequence of events I presented there is pretty much EXACTLY what happened in the GV damage discussion before I was banned.

The problem seems to be that certain questions/issues have a history. For example, if ANYONE would be foolish enough to post any questions regarding the 190 roll rate, he would immediately get slaughtered. Because everyone has heard that discussion at least ten times. Problem is the poor guy who posts doesnt neccesarily know this.

As for your comments on my little list there, I can tell you right now that 1-4 is exactly what I did regarding the .50 cal and 7.92mm MGs ability to penetrate PzIVH armour. And I only posted those things once. I got no reply whatsoever from HTC, so I mailed the question to the Questions and answers forum (its gone now, but you remember it, right?).

No replies from HTC, plenty of replies on the BB though, some more interesting than others. Some posted fantastic stories about P47s bouncing their .50cals off the road to kill Panzers from underneath. At least 3 people swore that it was true and it indeed had happened, because they had seen it on TV. Others claimed that if you go by .50 cal penetration data, you will note that it is theoretically possible for .50 cals to penetrate turret top or hull top armor on a PzIVH, yet those same people fail to realize exactly how the US army defined "penetration" in their penetration tests. Or that the gun would have to be close to a 90 degree dive 200 meters from the target in order to penetrate.

So I went ahead and posted the results of a British ww2 battlefield study that examined all destroyed German PzV's from June 6th 1944 to Jan 30th 1945. Not one was destroyed by MG fire, a handful was destroyed by rockets.

You tell me AK, where in all this did I insult anyone? Where did I attack or whine? What was my motivation? Was it to make the PzIVH "uber"?

*****edit******

SOB · « **Reply #69 on:** January 02, 2003, 05:38:26 PM »

He's probably calling you on it because either your memory is faulty or you're full of toejam.

"As for your comments on my little list there, I can tell you right now that 1-4 is exactly what I did regarding the .50 cal and 7.92mm MGs ability to penetrate PzIVH armour. And I only posted those things once. I got no reply whatsoever from HTC, so I mailed the question to the Questions and answers forum (its gone now, but you remember it, right?)."

Well, if you only posted about it once, then this must be the thread:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61351

SOB

Hortlund · « **Reply #70 on:** January 02, 2003, 05:45:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SOB
He's probably calling you on it because either your memory is faulty or you're full of toejam.

"As for your comments on my little list there, I can tell you right now that 1-4 is exactly what I did regarding the .50 cal and 7.92mm MGs ability to penetrate PzIVH armour. And I only posted those things once. I got no reply whatsoever from HTC, so I mailed the question to the Questions and answers forum (its gone now, but you remember it, right?)."

Well, if you only posted about it once, then this must be the thread:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61351

SOB

I only posted my test results once (as you can see) but at the time there were 3-4 threads going on simultaneously on the same subject. wtf I thought I told you that just a few posts earlier in this same thread? What is your problem exactly?

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #71 on:** January 02, 2003, 05:51:52 PM »

His point is that when you posted in the data people listened and HT even responded. This was due to the effort put in, and the non-biased presentation.

You said you only posted this data once, yet there were 4 threads going on. Wanna guess why the other three weren't nearly as nice?

AKDejaVu

hitech · « **Reply #72 on:** January 02, 2003, 05:54:30 PM »

Hortlund:
1. Why should you expect a modling question response from us?
Did you ever happen to think that we read the threads and choose not to get into it. Then you try to get a response by email.
Then you complain that we don't answere a modeling question , that is not realy our responciblity to give.

2. Did it ever occure to you that we do take complete angle penitrations into account with armor?

3. Hotlund wrote.

Quote

The GV damage model was flawed, it still is. But I have given up trying to influence the game. I know better now.

It couldn't be that you are wrong on penitration and THATS why it dosn't get changed? No you need to take the attitude while off course im correct and HTC won't change any thing.

This is the very crap that is the center of the great Luft Whine debate.

HiTech

eskimo2 · « **Reply #73 on:** January 02, 2003, 06:10:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
But I have given up trying to influence the game. I know better now.
HiTech

???

What do you mean by this HiTech?

Thanks,

eskimo

hitech · « **Reply #74 on:** January 02, 2003, 06:13:26 PM »

Was a quote eskimo ill fix it

HiTech