Author Topic: 152 ? (Read 5442 times)

Hortlund · « **Reply #75 on:** January 02, 2003, 07:45:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Hortlund:
1. Why should you expect a modling question response from us?
Did you ever happen to think that we read the threads and choose not to get into it. Then you try to get a response by email.
Then you complain that we don't answere a modeling question , that is not realy our responciblity to give.

2. Did it ever occure to you that we do take complete angle penitrations into account with armor?

3. Hotlund wrote.

It couldn't be that you are wrong on penitration and THATS why it dosn't get changed? No you need to take the attitude while off course im correct and HTC won't change any thing.

This is the very crap that is the center of the great Luft Whine debate.

HiTech

I assumed that if I sent a question by email to HTC that question would be answered. Or that I at least would get some kind of acknowledgement that my mail had been recieved. I understand now that I was wrong in that assumption. That was my mistake, and fair enough, I had no right to expect a response either. Its just that alot of people were lookin for those answers, and several people actually encouraged me to get on the phone to HTC to ask those questions.

Over to the armor penetration model.

Hitech, in the tests I did before I was banned, I had the following results.

.50cal will penetrate hull rear of PzIVH from 100 m
.50cal will penetrate tracks of PzIVH from 100 m
.50 cal will penetrate turret side of PzIVH from 100 m
.50 cal will penetrate hull side of PzIVH from 100 m

I never had a chance to post those results though.

In v 1.11 the GV damage model has been changed, and there has been alot of improvement. I did the same test again and some of the effects remain though.

New results under 1.11
.50 cal will penetrate hull rear of PzIVH
.50 cal will penetrate tracks of PzIVH
.50 cal will penetrate tracks of PzVIB
.50 cal will penetrate tracks of Ostwind

7.92mm will penetrate tracks of PzIVH
7.92mm will penetrate tracks of PzVIB
7.92mm will penetrate tracks of Ostwind

.30 cal will penetrate tracks of PzVIB
.30 cal will penetrate tracks of PzIVH
.30 cal will penetrate tracks of Ostwind

37mm HE will penetrate turret side of PzIVH
37mm HE will penetrate tracks of PzIVH
37mm HE will penetrate tracks of PzVIB

(note, I did not test 37mm HE effect on PzIVH more than turret side, I suspect it will penetrate hull rear and side though)

Some peculiar results:
88mm AP will not penetrate Ostwind tracks (tried 10 shots)
88mm AP will not penetrate M8 Wheels (tried 6 shots)

88mm AP required 5 hits to take out M8 from side
88mm AP required 2 hits to take out Ostwind turret from front.

(I did not test any more 88mm AP penetration than those shots)

In my opinon, and according to my sources on armour and penetration, all these results should not happen. It should not be possible to shoot off the tracks on a Tiger using a 7.92mm MG. Nor should it be possible to not take out the Ostwind tracks with a direct hit from an 88mm AP.

Am I wrong about these penetrations?

Pongo · « **Reply #76 on:** January 02, 2003, 08:41:11 PM »

Sorry..
who penetrated you again?

-ammo- · « **Reply #77 on:** January 02, 2003, 09:04:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
Maxtor? Seen the actual FW charts of it? If not, then you can't really say it is right or wrong. Where the plane really is wrong is above 35k where the GM1 was set in.

HTC has removed the 30k+ charts from the webpage, why I don't know but it has been done thus you can't see it anymore. The Ta152H-1 in AH is pretty right when it comes to speed (not climb) bellow 35k. Above 35k it is pretty much worse then it actually was, either because of no GM1 modelled in AH at all or very undermodelled GM1. It could give out 410 hp extra with a 100 g/s consumption. It could also be run at 60 g/s and 150 g/s.

100 g/s was the most usual.

And yes, why is it perked? P51B has the same top speed at almost exactly the same alt (35k) but it maneuvers far better and accelerates far better.

Not to nitpick, but why would anyone care if the plane is off a little above 35K? How many fights you gonna find up there?

Urchin · « **Reply #78 on:** January 02, 2003, 09:32:01 PM »

I'm going to try to quantify this perk plane known as the Ta-152. The strong points are good rolling, good firepower, great range, and great turning (once the wing tanks are empty). In my opinion that is why it is perked.

It *will* out turn a Tempest on the deck, in a flat-turn. Ok, I've never actually tested them, but I've tested the Ta152 vs the La7 and the Tempest vs the La7. With a light fue load (50% or so), the Ta-152 out turns the La7 easily. At any fuel load, the La7 out turns the Tempest.

It isn't one of the super fastest planes in the game (at least not on the deck, where it counts), but it can out-run what it can't out-turn. The exception to this may be the Spit 14, that might be able to run one down at low altitude, I'm not sure.

The P-51 doesn't out turn OR out accelerate the Ta-152, as far as I know. The -152s acceleration isn't as good as the other German planes, but I don't believe it is as slow as the P-51 either.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents on the Ta-152.

Rude · « **Reply #79 on:** January 02, 2003, 11:39:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
Dont even go there Rude.

Go where? To the Vehicle forum?

SOB · « **Reply #80 on:** January 03, 2003, 02:02:18 AM »

Not to nitpick, but now that the damage model for the vehicles has been modified, wouldn't any tests done on the old model be useless?

SOB

Hortlund · « **Reply #81 on:** January 03, 2003, 03:48:09 AM »

Yes, hence the tests using the newest version. I thought I said those tests were in 1.11?

SOB · « **Reply #82 on:** January 03, 2003, 05:18:16 AM »

Hmmm, apparently I haven't learned how to read yet. I'll work on that.

SOB

Wilbus · « **Reply #83 on:** January 03, 2003, 05:58:44 AM »

Quote

Not to nitpick, but why would anyone care if the plane is off a little above 35K? How many fights you gonna find up there?

Considering I've been outclimbed at 35k by spits 9's it does matter Ammo. The Gm1 400 hp extra given by the Gm1 would have alowed me to climb away at that altitude. As it is now you might as well take a P51 or Dora for 20-25k work and a Spit 9 above 30k for climb or a P51B for some speed above 30k. Ta152 is totally useless at all altitudes as it is now.

Wilbus · « **Reply #84 on:** January 03, 2003, 05:59:36 AM »

But, seeing how this leads nowhere but to take alot of my time I won't post about it no more, will satisfie most people.

hitech · « **Reply #85 on:** January 03, 2003, 09:17:19 AM »

Hort: Please also retract your "I know better now post" It realy does deserve an apology.

What 50 cal are we talking GV or plane?

Also what sources are you using on the track stuff thats a tad different than just armor penitration.

On the rear shot, did it just take out the eng or the tank?

HiTech

SirLoin · « **Reply #86 on:** January 03, 2003, 09:42:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
I'm going to try to quantify this perk plane known as the Ta-152. The strong points are good rolling, good firepower, great range, and great turning (once the wing tanks are empty). In my opinion that is why it is perked.

It *will* out turn a Tempest on the deck, in a flat-turn. Ok, I've never actually tested them, but I've tested the Ta152 vs the La7 and the Tempest vs the La7. With a light fue load (50% or so), the Ta-152 out turns the La7 easily. At any fuel load, the La7 out turns the Tempest.

It isn't one of the super fastest planes in the game (at least not on the deck, where it counts), but it can out-run what it can't out-turn. The exception to this may be the Spit 14, that might be able to run one down at low altitude, I'm not sure.

The P-51 doesn't out turn OR out accelerate the Ta-152, as far as I know. The -152s acceleration isn't as good as the other German planes, but I don't believe it is as slow as the P-51 either.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents on the Ta-152.

Thnx for the info...Gonna fly some 152's till I run outta perks this tour..

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #87 on:** January 03, 2003, 10:02:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
Considering I've been outclimbed at 35k by spits 9's it does matter Ammo. The Gm1 400 hp extra given by the Gm1 would have alowed me to climb away at that altitude. As it is now you might as well take a P51 or Dora for 20-25k work and a Spit 9 above 30k for climb or a P51B for some speed above 30k. Ta152 is totally useless at all altitudes as it is now.

This kind of statement demonstrates exactly the reason many of us don't take you very seriously, Wilbus.

You've been outclimbed at 35k by Spit IXs? Got systematic proof? Did you even bother filming the many times you claim to have been outclimbed or outrun or whatnot? With the film viewer, it's now very easy to ascertain the relative E states and actual altitudes of all parties involved. It should be a simple matter to figure out why or how the Spit IX was capable of doing what it could.

Then again this blanket statement that the Ta152 is worthless at all altitudes. It's hardly worthless, and even if it's arguably "porked," it's still an awesome plane. I can't honestly believe that someone would think otherwise of it other than as a matter of hyperbole because it doesn't match how they expect it would perform.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Hortlund · « **Reply #88 on:** January 03, 2003, 10:14:55 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Hort: Please also retract your "I know better now post" It realy does deserve an apology.

What 50 cal are we talking GV or plane?

Also what sources are you using on the track stuff thats a tad different than just armor penitration.

On the rear shot, did it just take out the eng or the tank?

HiTech

Alright, I edited it now. And I do apologize if you feel offended by my post.

the .50cal is the pintle gun on the M8
the .30 cal is the coaxial gun on the m8
the 7.92mm is the pintle gun or coaxial gun on the PzIVH

The rear shot only took out the engine.

As for the Tiger tracks, Im assuming you modelled it with the combat tracks? In that case the tracks are made of cast-manganese, and should have no problem to withstand MG fire, .50 cal fire, 37mm HE fire, or even 37mm AP fire for that matter.

Source for Tiger armor and tracks:
Tiger tanks, Michael Green ISBN 0-87938-954-0 (in case you guys doesnt have it already)

Source for armor and penetration discussion:
World war two ballistics, Bird and Livingstone (I dont have the ISBN number here, so I included a link to the book on amazon.

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y02Y6682179Y8887379/qid=1041610791/sr=1-1/103-9425514-4002218#details

Steve

Wilbus · « **Reply #89 on:** January 03, 2003, 01:17:16 PM »

You can try it your self if you don't belive me. Nothing hard to try, nor do I still have the film as I have a new HD.

But whatever, you don't believe me, that's your problem, you might wanna open your eyes for what it can and can not do.