Author Topic: luffwobble abuse? (Read 10471 times)

Mark Luper · « **Reply #45 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:27:13 PM »

Grun, this is just a guess on my part, no flame intended...

Could it be that the LW contigent ( guys who really like LW planes and fly them almost exclusively) happen to be the only ac type fans that are as single minded as they are? Most of the guys that I know who really really like LW iron fly little if anything else. This singlemindedness may be the reason for them being picked upon. I am speaking of LW aircraft, not axis aircraft in general.

Also, though those same LW iron fans may not support the original politics involved, a lot of others may subconciously see them as supporters of the Reich and all the terrible attrocities attributed to that political government. The "Bad Guys" so to speak.

Looked at in this light then it would not be too surprising they would get picked on more than fans of other aircraft types.

This is not an attempt to say none of the other political entities involved in the second world war did not engage in attrocities. I don't even want to go there. I am just trying to find a plausible explanation.

I plead guilty to jumping on the "luftwhiner" bandwagon and I think it has to do with what I wrote of above.

Innominate · « **Reply #46 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:30:24 PM »

I think this thread is a perfect answer to the original question.

hitech · « **Reply #47 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:32:47 PM »

Grunherz: If you point is I should choose my words wisly , I agree and belive I always do. But you got me involved in this post by accusing me of .

Quote

And then there is is the issue of HTC responsibility here or rather irresponsibility. I have seen Hitech, the owner and head honcho here obviously, make fun of people on the BBS in public as Luftwhiners.

I Asked you to back that up, you never have.

And therfore your hole point becomes totaly invalid.

HiTech

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #48 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:33:03 PM »

If you are thinking that the anti-whine whiners as you said are becoming a problem then we agree 100%. Thats exactly why I'm putting so much effort in this. Thats good to hear Hitech and I thank you.

But why chose those examples?

How is choice of typhoon compared to FW190 bad, does Mandoble get killed a lot my typhoon- if so thats clearly a biased test.

The P51 roll rate thread you quoted is strange. Hazed IIRC said it seems to roll better with new version. Other people confirmed the same but it was decised it was due to new 3D model sightlines. Nothing scandalous, unless you consider Hazed (a LW) asking about FM to be a problem? And of course why bring it up when you agreesd it was fine? I dont understand?

The LA7/D9 oil thing. All I see there is somebody noticing oil runs out faster in D9 and asking what the oil tank capacities of the two planes are, What exactly are you supposed to ask in such a situation. The 6oc thing seems pretty clear to me, likely an issue of deflection shots.

Is the Stuka thing really that big of a deal? Just curious, does it raiise to status of a problem post?

And once again I want to thank you for dealing with the atmosphere here, I appreciate that.

hitech · « **Reply #49 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:40:42 PM »

It's a big deal grunherz, because 99% of the post I see from those 2 gentlemen, are always exctly the same, looking for some way that we are screwing the LW, or them personaly.

HiTech

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #50 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:43:56 PM »

Hitech:

I agree that we should all chose words more carefully. kweassa chose excellent words here and he capured my meaning much more accuratetely and carefully. I stand by what he said in ragds to this matter.

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Originally posted by Kweassa
Grun's whole point is your the most powerful man alive in these boards, and if you aren't careful you can influence a lot of people in the wrong way.

Somebody questions about a plane, or has doubts about it, brings it up in a discussion. Then, someone else bops in and comments "that's why people refer to you as a Luftwhiner".

..and you expect people to see that comment as a neutral one?

Even if it is "not the case" for you, it's "a case" for other people when those words come out of your mouth. Sure, it's not your fault how others think about what you said, but it doesn't hurt to be more careful in sensitive issues.

That's Grun's point, and you're suddenly implying Grunherz is proving that he believes in the "anti-LW conspiracy".

Really, I don't see how anyone can come to that logical conclusion.

ps) oops.. Swulfe came to that conclusion, too.

Hi Mark welcome to our discussion:

In a word no, basically there are guys who are just as devoted to their particular plane as supposed LW. Even LW types arent bound to LW planes, I for one like flying the IL2 and FM2 sometimes. Certainly one sees plenty of RAF squads and P51 squads. and of course USN navy devotees etc.

Pretty much every LW squad in every sim I played had a nazi disclaimer on its front page, so LW fans see the potential of the problem. Most also have strict rules that will explel nazi types drom the squad.

But then again we have Soviets and Japanese planes. You could say too these too should have disclaimers, perhaps especially Japan for wha they did in China or with POW. But thats a side issue of course, however the lack of concern there is interesting.

eddiek · « **Reply #51 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:44:38 PM »

"If i was to look at all the posts on all the aircraft, 90% of them are posts from a player who likes a particular aircraft and happens to have more books on that particular aircraft . And a high percentage of these are requests for improvements to their model. i.e. combat flaps on p38s."

Well, Hazed, not trying to single you out on purpose, but your statement above reflected my thoughts exactly, with one addition.
Jog on over to the Aircraft/Vehicles boards and count just how many of the topics are LW related versus Allied related. Note how the subjects are titled also, count how many have "needs" or "should have" in the subject line. No matter if the "need"ed upgrade/mod/field kit was widespread or whether someone found a few sentences in some reference book that mentioned the upgrade was available and used on a small number of aircraft, it is "NEEDED".

Anymore, when I look in that section and see "(insert LW plane) needs (insert anything)", my first thoughts are "LW needs nothing."
Why? HHhhhhmmmm......let me see............
Me262, Me163, Ta152, Tiger, Ar234..........
The LW fans get the top performing planes, yet it STILL isn't enough! The 152 is missing some top speed, needs to be addressed I agree, but did anyone of the LW fans ever take the time to actually count the votes from Pyro's poll way back then? I did,and the 152 was not among the top vote getters. But we still got it, didn't we?
I've been waiting over a year for a hopped up Jug, M or N, either one would be fine with me. Will I get one soon? Only Pyro and HiTech and company know, but I am not gonna throw a hissy fit over it.
Check how many posts there are from folks wanting the Do335, see how many neutral folks say that since it didn't see combat that it should not be introduced, then see how many LW fans say it should anyway. Heck, if the Do335 qualifies, or the Horton flying wing fighter, gimme a P-47J, F8F, F7F, P-80, etc....

GRUNHERZ, IMO a "Luftwhiner", "Luftwobble", and other names you consider derogatory should only bother you if the shoe fits............

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #52 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:48:32 PM »

Eddiek:
I dont think I am as Luftwhiner as much as somebody mighnt not think they are a cupcake, and both of us dont like the name. Of course thats a bit of an exaggeration but It works well to illustrate my point I think, so please nobody overreact ok?

SOB · « **Reply #53 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:51:08 PM »

LOL Grun, I don't even know what to say to that!

Wow.

SOB

hitech · « **Reply #54 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:51:52 PM »

Grun: Please back up your orginal accusation of me.

HiTech

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #55 on:** December 30, 2002, 05:59:28 PM »

Hitech as we have already agreed to I chose my words crudely and made my point imprecisely. However I think Kweassa put it perfectly - and thats what I stand by.

So going by that it's obvious I cannot say you made fun of wilbus directly as luftwhiner.

Again this is what I should have written in the first place and it sums up my concern perfectly.

If you were offended by what I wrote first then I'm sorry and I hope you read the follwing text again.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kweassa
Grun's whole point is your the most powerful man alive in these boards, and if you aren't careful you can influence a lot of people in the wrong way.

Somebody questions about a plane, or has doubts about it, brings it up in a discussion. Then, someone else bops in and comments "that's why people refer to you as a Luftwhiner".

..and you expect people to see that comment as a neutral one?

Even if it is "not the case" for you, it's "a case" for other people when those words come out of your mouth. Sure, it's not your fault how others think about what you said, but it doesn't hurt to be more careful in sensitive issues.

That's Grun's point, and you're suddenly implying Grunherz is proving that he believes in the "anti-LW conspiracy".

Really, I don't see how anyone can come to that logical conclusion.

ps) oops.. Swulfe came to that conclusion, too.
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GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #56 on:** December 30, 2002, 06:02:33 PM »

Hi SOB as expected the comparsion is a bit extreme, but I'm sirprised it even made you speechless.

I certainly did not indent to leech any moral authority from the comparsion, however it served as an excellent illustrator to counter eddiek's incorrecy assertion.

hazed- · « **Reply #57 on:** December 30, 2002, 06:09:48 PM »

I feel i have to answer due to the threat of me losing my BBs privelages.Id like to know er ... why?

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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
If you are thinking that the anti-whine whiners as you said are becoming a problem then we agree 100%. Thats exactly why I'm putting so much effort in this. Thats good to hear Hitech and I thank you.

But why chose those examples?

How is choice of typhoon compared to FW190 bad, does Mandoble get killed a lot my typhoon- if so thats clearly a biased test.

The P51 roll rate thread you quoted is strange. Hazed IIRC said it seems to roll better with new version. Other people confirmed the same but it was decised it was due to new 3D model sightlines. Nothing scandalous, unless you consider Hazed (a LW) asking about FM to be a problem? And of course why bring it up when you agreesd it was fine? I dont understand?

you know what, neither do i grun. So the fact that i flew the p51D and felt it seemed to roll better, then posted the question is wrong? Just how else is it supposed to be done? I couldnt load 1.10 and do tests on the p51d of that version as i havent got the patch anymore. So i asked with the idea of finding out if im just imagining it.

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The LA7/D9 oil thing. All I see there is somebody noticing oil runs out faster in D9 and asking what the oil tank capacities of the two planes are, What exactly are you supposed to ask in such a situation. The 6oc thing seems pretty clear to me, likely an issue of deflection shots.

Id like to point out that i actually disagreed with this post Hitech.It at least proves im not just ranting about anything i see posted.If i feel a player has a point i agree, if i dont i say why.

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Is the Stuka thing really that big of a deal? Just curious, does it raiise to status of a problem post?

sheesh this was merely me seeing a picture of this actual stuka in a book WITH the siren on it. It was in NO WAY meant as a demand for change OR implying HTC are conspiring to rid us of the siren! is that REALLY what you think HT? from my point of veiw i only posted it because i wanted to hear the siren. I coulnt give a damn about it TRUELLY! I just thought id share the info(a plan drawing) in the hope it might be added. When it was pointed out that its a common occourance and that diagrams are often wrong then it was discussed about how sure we can be it wasnt correct.Which incidently was answered by wotan later.
Was this really such a terrible post?? Im a bit confused as to whether im actually allowed to post any questions at all now.Again i feel its a case of you guys predicting my motives and being COMPLETELY wrong.I cant stress this enough.

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And once again I want to thank you for dealing with the atmosphere here, I appreciate that.

Im also glad to read that the whine stuff is as annoying to you guys as it is to your customers. this is the best news ive seen in a long while.

hitech · « **Reply #58 on:** December 30, 2002, 06:11:10 PM »

Thing is Grun. You have been arguing two points.

1. About me choicing words, and we agree, and I always try to do so.

2. Is the Luftwhiner stuff, that we do not agree on ,because you don't seem to want to see most of the problem is caused by the luftwhiners and not the whine police to follow.

So what should be done about bad behavior on this board, and make no mistake true "luftwines" post are bad behavor, along with the whine police posting to none whines.

HiTech

Hortlund · « **Reply #59 on:** December 30, 2002, 06:15:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
So what should be done about bad behavior on this board, and make no mistake true "luftwines" post are bad behavor, along with the whine police posting to none whines.

Speaking for myself here, I think one of the problems is that I'm not completely sure where the you draw the line between "true luftwhines" and "ok whines".