Author Topic: Capitalism is a pain in the arse  (Read 3583 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2003, 11:15:24 AM »
Thanks Dowding!

As for Engels finiacially supporting Marx and him being the son of a wealthy industralist thats all common knowlege...  So whats your point?

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2003, 12:01:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thanks Dowding!

As for Engels finiacially supporting Marx and him being the son of a wealthy industralist thats all common knowlege...  So whats your point?



Heh, Gruen , ya didn't answer my question.

Why did Karl Marx + Friedrich Engels go opposite direction then all of their friends + family?

They dont have anything to win out there with the weak and the poor, dont they?

Why did Che Guevara left Kuba after they won and he was finacial minister?

Was Guevara wrong when he goes to bolivia?

What's the situation now in bolivia, a long time after he was murdered?

Why Fidel Castro didn't go on with a career as a loyer + risk his life in a revolution, was he tired of life?

Regards Blitz


btw. I don't say i agree with politics in Kuba

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2003, 12:14:30 PM »
You wrote:

"They were good people, tryin to make the world better just like many others, Che Guevarra', 'Fidel Castro' etc, etc. "

Yes you do agree with politics in Cuba....  You make it clear you are a communist and wish for their policies.


Che was a blodthirsty murderer and he went to Bolivia looking for trouble and trying to start a civil war that would have killed tens of thousands. He wasnt wanted there and there was no revolution there and nobody was itching for one- he was trying trying to fulfil his ego at the cost of tens of thousands of lives.

Today Bolivia is the poorest South American nation, it was back then too, no better or worse.  There simply isnt much of econmy there whatsover capitalistic/socialistic whatever. If you argue it would have been better if Che got his communist revolution then you are supporter of communism and are threfore party to murder of over one hundred of million people.

Fidel Castro is aand always was a power hungry paranoid inhuman murdering dictator type. He wanted to run the country.  But I bet you think he put thousands of people in torture prisons just because...

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2003, 12:55:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You wrote:

"They were good people, tryin to make the world better just like many others, Che Guevarra', 'Fidel Castro' etc, etc. "

Yes you do agree with politics in Cuba....  You make it clear you are a communist and wish for their policies.


Che was a blodthirsty murderer and he went to Bolivia looking for trouble and trying to start a civil war that would have killed tens of thousands. He wasnt wanted there and there was no revolution there and nobody was itching for one- he was trying trying to fulfil his ego at the cost of tens of thousands of lives.

Today Bolivia is the poorest South American nation, it was back then too, no better or worse.  There simply isnt much of econmy there whatsover capitalistic/socialistic whatever. If you argue it would have been better if Che got his communist revolution then you are supporter of communism and are threfore party to murder of over one hundred of million people.

Fidel Castro is aand always was a power hungry paranoid inhuman murdering dictator type. He wanted to run the country.  But I bet you think he put thousands of people in torture prisons just because...




Well Gruen, on most / all Middle/ South American countries you have capitalism as economy system as it was in the west 150 years ago.
Very few people are unbeleaveble rich + own 90% of the land, rest of the pple are unbeleaveble poor.
And this system is supported by the west because we got some benefit from it, ex. cheap coffee, wood + other stuff.

Ever heard of 'United Fruit Company'?

Ever heard of 'Cammillo Torres', a priest who changed the bible with the gun in south america because he came to the conclusion that it is the system that has to be changed?


Regards Blitz


btw. No idea which way  a revolution in bolivia might had taken, might be worth then before, who knows, but would have been worth a try for those who didn't have much to loose and that are most in that part of the world.

Offline texace

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1031
      • http://www.usmc.mil
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2003, 12:59:32 PM »
The way I see it...capitalism is a load of crap. Look at it this way: A man can work his whole life for little pay, just to get by, while some other guy can sit on his butt and get money for free. Even though the first man contributed more to the economy and gov't, the second man is considered better because he has more money.

I hate that logic...I hate the fact rich people can get money for nothing and contribute very little, someone like me can work his arse off and get nowhere in the socail ladder. Do I want the same pay they get? No...what I want if for them to work for thier money. Earn that money like the rest of us. You ain't special cause you got more money that I do...

BTW...there's nothing wrong with communists...

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2003, 01:23:10 PM »
Lazs, undoubtedly a system like the Russian or Chinese system is despicable.  However, our system isn't any better.  Over 'there' kids would be selected for different jobs based on some personality tests, and they'd be forced to do that job whether they like it or not.  That is bad.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of that.  

However, in our system people are looked at as nothing more than a way to generate income.  A substantial portion of the population is basically imprisoned in run down ghettos where crime and poverty run rampant.  Nobody gives a toejam about these people (and no, I'm not any better, I'm not running a 'save the black youth' movement, just holding them up as an example of why our system sucks).  The next Einstein could be living in the East Side of Baltimore right now, and he will not get the chance to make any impact on this world at all.  Unless he becomes a murderer or drug dealer (in which case he may have some slight impact on his victims families), or is murdered himself.  

I mean, even something as basic as HEALTH CARE is 'for-profit' (euphimism for if I don't make any money off you, diddly off and die).  Education?  Also 'for profit'.  Now, I don't think my retarded next door neighbor deserves a free college education, mostly because he wouldn't ever make use of it, and probably couldn't understand the courses anyway.  But I do think that anyone that makes it through high school with a decent GPA (or perhaps even with a crappy GPA but high test scores, who knows) could make use of a college education- and perhaps benefit SOCIETY as a whole from it.

And Blitz... the South America of today is the "1st World" of tommorrow... economically speaking anyway.  The disparity in income between your 'average' American and 'wealthy' Americans has been growing for the past 30 years.  Something like 40% of Americans actually live below the 'poverty line', according to some statistics I saw a couple years ago.  I'll try to look them up again and post them.

EDIT:  Damn... either those statistics were way the hell off a couple years ago, or I misremembered something.  This is from the "I.R.P."

"""The poverty rate represents an average over the entire population, and does not really tell us who, in particular, is well off, who is worse off. For that, it is necessary to examine poverty levels for particular groups. Most notably, blacks and Hispanics have poverty rates that greatly exceed the average.  The poverty rate for all blacks and Hispanics remained near 30 percent during the 1980s and mid-1990s. Thereafter it began to fall. In 2000, the rate for blacks dropped to 22.1 percent and for Hispanics to 21.2 percent—the lowest rate for both groups since the United States began measuring poverty.  In 2001, the rates were 22.7 for blacks and 21.4 for Hispanics. Among children under age 18, 16.3 percent, or 11.7 million children, lived in poverty. (See Table 1 and Table 2 and also the FAQ, How Many Children Are Poor?)  The poverty rate for the aged, which  in 1959 exceeded the overall poverty rate, fell below it beginning in 1982. In 2000 it was 10.2 percent. The poverty rate for whites who were not Hispanic was below the overall poverty rate from 1959 through 2001. In 2001 it was 7.8 percent.

Of all family groups, poverty is highest among those headed by single women ( Table 2), especially if they are black or Hispanic. In 2001, 26.4 percent of  all female-headed families were poor, compared to 4.9 percent of  families in which males were present. Among black and Hispanic families headed by women, poverty rates exceeded 35 percent.

Poverty levels also differ depending on where people live (See Table 1). The metropolitan poverty rate differs greatly between suburbs and the inner city. In 1979, the average central city poverty rate was 15.7 percent; at its highest point, in 1993, it was 21.5; by 2001 it was 16.5 percent, but was still over twice the rate for the suburbs (8.2 percent).  Poverty in rural areas is not negligible either; in 2001, 14.2 percent of people living outside metropolitan areas (that is, in the countryside and small country towns), were poor.

The poverty rate also varies by region and within regions. In 2001 it was greatest in the South, at 13.5 percent, and lowest in the Midwest, at 9.4 percent. Over the years 1998–2000, the poverty rate was lowest in the state of Maryland (7.3 percent)—yet in the adjacent District of Columbia, it stood at 17.3 percent.
""

EDIT Part Duece:  OK, some stuff on income disparity in the U.S.

This is from http://www.justpeace.org/structures/squeeze.htm

From 1977 - 1989, the wealthiest 660,000 families gained 75% of "average pretax income" increases, while most middle income families saw only a 4% increase -- and those in the bottom 40% of income cohorts had real declines.

The average annual earnings of the top group increased from $315,000 to $560,000 in twelve years. In 1990, the median income was $29,934; in 1973, it was $30,943 (constant dollars). Women in the workforce have helped to forestall lifestyle crashes due to this stagnant growth (Newman Declining 40, 42).

During 1983 to 1992, the top 1% of households net worth increased from 34% to 42% of all household wealth; the bottom 80% dropped from 18% to 15% (the top 20% in 1989 controlled 85% of all household wealth). The only other comparable era of wealth concentration was 1922 to 1929 (12-13).

The ratio of the compensation of CEOs to the average worker in 1974 was 35 to 1; now it is 150 to 1. Using Council of Economic Advisors data, the article found that the real income of men with high school educations dropped 21% between 1979 and 1990  [MY NOTE: Capitalism in action, baby...]

The cost of medical care and household costs of medical care rose 50%, 1970 - 1990, in constant dollars [MY NOTE: More Capitalism in action]
« Last Edit: January 11, 2003, 01:37:06 PM by Urchin »

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2003, 01:42:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
And Blitz... the South America of today is the "1st World" of tommorrow... economically speaking anyway.  The disparity in income between your 'average' American and 'wealthy' Americans has been growing for the past 30 years.  Something like 40% of Americans actually live below the 'poverty line', according to some statistics I saw a couple years ago.  I'll try to look them up again and post them.

Rgr that urch, need to simplyfy at times ;)


What i really hate on capitalism - its leads to a very big ifference, rich-poor on long terms.

Germany was kind of levelled out , a few rich, a few poor, most was fairly middle- class, liked that. Now as DDR is history we see these gold diggers out there with this $sign in their eyes and everything goes south here.
Mooonnnnnnnnnnnnneeeeeeeeeeee eeyyyyyyyy ;)


Rgards blitz

Offline whgates3

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1426
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2003, 01:52:13 PM »
the main problem w/ capitalism occurs after the top dog outcompetes the other contenders. during the brawl for market share it works great, but eventually it leads to a monopoly situation

Offline Mirge

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2003, 01:56:04 PM »
true laisefare capitalism is what works like in the old days of our forefathers, they wanted to keep govt small only protecting the basic rights of citizens..thats where capitalism works...government has grown since then steadily getting bigger and bigger like a snowball deciding what we can and cant do.. gov't dont make it better private organizations, business's and you the citizens make a better country. dosent everyone know by now if the government is involved with somthing it usually dosent work (only according to them it does and if it dosent we need more money(your money) to make it work) har har har they own you, you are all just livestock happily feeding them the money they need to keep you blissfully ignorant.

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2003, 02:07:41 PM »
Well, Mirge....  I think Laisse Faire (or however the hell thats spelled) doesn't work at all.  

In the 'days of our forefathers' (depending on how far back you go I suppose), there was no industry.  There wasn't even really a 'society' in the terms that we think of nowadays.  People lived in isolation, even large 'cities' would barely qualify as towns today.  

When industry was introduced our 'forefathers' (the ones who weren't killed anyway) labored away working 16 hour days 6 days a week.. making no money.  They bought all they needed at the 'company store' (and employees were sometimes even prohibited from buying supplies anywhere else, assuming that another source was even available) where the cost was happily put on their 'tab'.  Their 'tab' was of course always higher than their earnings were, thus keeping them in bondage to the company.  Children were employed at factories.. the younger the better since smaller children could fit into smaller spaces... and also didn't have to be paid as much.

Then laborers got organized.  The unions fought the corporations and won some benefits.  Workdays and workweeks were shortened, pay was increased.  Now Labor's power has been broken (and will more than likely never rear it's head again, outside of 'professional' occupations such as pilots, law enforcement, etc.).  The power of the corporation is back on the rise...  courtesy of politicians bought and paid for by same.

Expect to see increasing work for decreasing pay.. in the name of our state religion.. Capitalism.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2003, 02:27:38 PM »
Blitz!  Ahoy!  It was fun meeting you at last years Eurocon! Hope you're making enough MONEY to come to the next one, as I'm looking forward to getting my hands inside that beer cooler of yours. :)

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2003, 02:46:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Blitz!  Ahoy!  It was fun meeting you at last years Eurocon! Hope you're making enough MONEY to come to the next one, as I'm looking forward to getting my hands inside that beer cooler of yours. :)


Ahoi Beetle, did a little search lately and it looks like con is in june this year.

http://pub36.ezboard.com/f322ndsqn1strofthenetherlandsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=43.topic

Lookin forward to meet ya, since then sittin next to the street beggin for some money from rich tourists or selling some 'Che' posters to them  ;D

Regards blitz

Offline Mirge

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2003, 02:53:39 PM »
this is what i mean by capitalism... laissez-faire capitalism.
A social system based on on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned. The governments only role in this is to protect you from any physical force brought upon you in which you have the right of self defence. low wages and the harsh living conditions of the early years of capitalism were alll the the national economics of the time could afford. capitalism didnt create povert it inherited it. compared the the centuries of precapitalist starvation, the living conditions of the poor in the early years of capitalism were the first change the poor had ever had to survive. As proof the enormous growth of the european population during the 19th century, a growth of over 300%,, as compared to the previous growth of something like 3% per century. ppl could actually survive off this new system called capitalism.. anyway i got most of this from ayn rands writings more specifically the lexicon. i didnt just pull it outta thin air.. there is still too much to say about it  and itd be better if you read it from the book i mentioned this is just a snippit... and plz tell me where you get your viewpoint from... plz dont say the history books you read in HS.

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2003, 04:55:09 PM »
I've formulated my views based on all kinds of reading I've done (in text books and otherwise),reading newspapers, and even a outside of class lecture or two while I was still in college.  I majored in History (mostly in European and Asian History, with a smattering of U.S. History courses that were required), but I also took a number of political science classes.  I also read the paper every day.. you'd be amazed at some of the stories you see in there.  

"Capitalism" has been around since the Middle Ages.  The fuedal lords of Europe realized they could make more money by clearing out a spot in the forest and building a town there.  People would go to the town to live, since it was safer than living out on your own surrounded by forest.  In this manner, the Lord provided protection to the people living on 'his' land.  In return, the town generated revenue in the form of taxes (primarily on trade goods.. towns attracted merchants as well).  This was money the Lord could use to pay troops, build castles, throw parties, whatever.  The ushering in of a 'urban' rather than 'rural' way of life for the medieval Europeans usherd in capitalism.  

Now, what we have now is slightly different.  I call it "Robber Baron-ism".  Yea, I know, it is a little unwieldy, but I just made it up on the spot.  The goal isn't to merely make a living, but to exploit everyone else as far as you can.  If we didn't have a government that was (occasionally, anyway) interested in the welfare of private citizens, we'd be slaves right now just as surely as the blacks were slaves to the plantation owners in the 19th Century.  

Oh, I'll have to check on that '300%' growth rate for the 19th century, it sounds a little extreme to me.  Same with the 3% for the previous centuries.  Granted, the population of Europe did explode, but it was because of a revolution in farming (which started in, you guessed it, the Middle Ages) rather than the birth of industrialism that caused the population boom.

"low wages and the harsh living conditions of the early years of capitalism were alll the the national economics of the time could afford. capitalism didnt create povert it inherited it. compared the the centuries of precapitalist starvation, the living conditions of the poor in the early years of capitalism were the first change the poor had ever had to survive."

Sorry, I missed this going through the first time.  Sure, I'll buy the first sentence.  I don't believe it, but I won't contest it.  I'll also buy the second sentence... I'm not contesting the fact that 'capitalism' generates wealth.  That is a given.  What I'm saying is that your typical American, or Dutchman, or Australian, or whatever, gets the toejam end of the stick as far as 'capitalism' goes.  

And sure, the 'poor' have a chance to survive now.  Are the urban poor of 2003 better off than the urban poor of 1823?  Certainly.  Are the urbanite wealthy doing better than they were before?  Absolutely.  What I have a problem with is that the urban poor are doing twice as well (made it up off the top of my head) and the wealthy are doing fourteen MILLION times as well (made that one up to, but you get the picture).  

I won't contest the fact that "Capitalism" is a better system than "Fuedalism".  That is a given.  What I will contest is that Capitalism is the end all, be all of governmental/economic systems.  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2003, 05:03:07 PM by Urchin »

Offline 2fraggs

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2003, 05:33:49 PM »
I perfer it to communism.