Author Topic: Capitalism is a pain in the arse  (Read 3585 times)

Offline Urchin

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2003, 11:47:23 AM »
Grun, I think Puudeli was a little confused.  I believe he meant Capitalism and Communism.

And while we are on the subject of what is and what is not possible...  is it not also impossible to have a capitalist society and a democratic society?  In a decmocratic society 'power' is shared equally by anyone who can vote.  In a capitalist society those with the money are those with the power.  I think it should be blatantly obvious who has the power in the U.S.A.

And Grun.. I'm not nescesarily against corporations.  As soon as I find one that pays their employees a living wage, and treats them with dignity, I'll be all for it.  What I AM against is corporations buying politicans (and please don't tell me it doesn't happen) and subverting our political system for their own ends.  

As far as a "communist" country that doesn't have an 'incredibly oppressive human rights record', well, I'll take a look for you.  How do you define 'communist'?  Are countries with a somewhat free enterprise system of economy but with some government run industries 'communist'?  Or only dictatorships where the state runs everything?  I also note the word 'significant' in your challenge... whats significant mean?  Is there a population limit?

I suppose I could label your question the way you meant to ask it "Name one 'communist' regime in Russia or China that didn't have an incredibly oppressive human rights record".  That better?

Offline Toad

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2003, 12:01:22 PM »
That's touching, Grun. But it's still saying one thing and doing another.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2003, 12:01:30 PM »
Communism cant work in a democratic process because people will reject it very quickly if given the chance.  But no communist regime has had much of a democacy so they never get the chance, they just die in gulags or flee to america.. :D

Power? How many votes does a corporation have? None. Zip. Zero.  People can vote however they want, why do leftists always assume people are ignorant or decieved and dont vote in  their own interests and that "corporatios" deceive them? Is it any wonder communists then try to take all power away from people?  

And I still dont see a single wholesome human rights oriented communist regime.  How bout this just take that to mean anything you want and come up with a defensible case for your choice of the human rights communist democratic regime. OK?

Corporation:

Oracle

Offline Thrawn

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2003, 12:07:30 PM »
"Power? How many votes does a corporation have? None. Zip. Zero. "

Because corporations can't vote they have no power?  That's pretty naive.  Are you honesty saying that corporations have no power over politicians.  Are you saying that politicians never bow to pressure from corporations.  That they always have their constituents best interests at heart?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2003, 12:25:19 PM »
Of course there is that inflence, but I say again ultimately the evil corporation has no votes.

And if you dont like that influennce you have the option of voting that particular person out in the next election if enough people agree with you.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2003, 12:40:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And if you dont like that influennce you have the option of voting that particular person out in the next election if enough people agree with you.


Sure, you can vote Republican, who are backed by big business.  Or Democrat, who are slightly less backed by big business, yeah tons of choice.  

So the majority of Americans don't bother to vote at all.

Offline blitz

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2003, 01:05:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Of course there is that inflence, but I say again ultimately the evil corporation has no votes.

And if you dont like that influennce you have the option of voting that particular person out in the next election if enough people agree with you.


That's not like it works  Gruen , your'e pretty funny :D


Pretty sure ya know Silvio Berlusconi from Italy.

At first he formed a large media imperium.

Then he jumped in politics controlling nearly everything l what people could read in the papers or seh on tv.

Now he's chief of italy government.

Yet, he begins to change the whole system to his needs.

That's a classic 1, hope italian democrats can fight him back

Regards Blitz

Offline Urchin

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2003, 04:45:38 PM »
Toad.. I'm going to get a little bit nasty here even though I probably shouldn't.  

What Grun seems to be trying to say is that he really enjoys 'dishing it out'... but it makes him cry when has to 'take it', so he really wishes people would stop making fun of him.  

And Grun..  How about Marshal Tito's Yugoslavia?  I did a very brief search on the Web... pulled this up.

"For the republics of Yugoslavia (1944-1992), Marshall Tito cultivated socialist fraternity and a unity that took precedence over ethnic differences. Tito was a considered a benevolent Father about whom rousing songs were composed and whose portrait still occupies a prominent place some homes and public buildings. Children honored him en masse every year on his birthday, May 25. A child was proud to make a small speech, hand him flowers, or present the ceremonial stafeta at the end of a relay race. This semblance of unity was maintained by sending dissidents to work camps or demoting them from positions of power.

Tito's death from cancer in May 1980 was a profound shock and provoked mourning throughout Yugoslavia. Many feared that without his presence unity could not be maintained. His coffin was placed on a train, which wound through the country, headed for an official state funeral in Belgrade. Huge crowds lined the tracks, carrying placards and singing songs that vowed to follow his path. Tito's burial was accompanied by a gun salute and the wailing of air-raid sirens.

Yugoslav brotherhood and unity dissolved quickly following Tito's death, as his "sons" vied for the position of the Father. An escalation of gruesome and violent acts by citizens against one another led to demands for the autonomy of republics and to a fracturing along ethnic lines. Bosnia became the central site of a multicultural dissolution, engineered by Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic. One of the most poignant symbols of this painful disintegration was the Croatian army's bombing of Bosnia's Mostar bridge, which brutally separated the city's Muslim and Croat populations. "

Granted, there is a mention of 'work camps'... but I suppose an examination of the United States penal system compared to some other countries would take up a whole other thread.  However, it would seem that in Yugoslavia's case Marshal Tito's brand of 'communism' held the country together in spite of racial tensions that existed before the country was even formed, and exploded into open war during the 1990's.

Although I'm no politican or economist.. I'll tell you what MY 'utopia" would be.  You would be absolutely allowed to own your own business, corporation, island.. whatever.  However, in return ALL of your employees WOULD earn a living wage (I trust I don't have to explain what this is) and your business would be taxed in proportion to its earnings.

The 'living wage' thing would take some doing, since obviously teenagers that work don't HAVE to live on their own, so they wouldn't necesarily need a living wage.  In an ideal world, teenagers wouldn't HAVE to work, they'd be free to concentrate on their schoolwork.  You would be absolutely free to pay yourself a salary of 800 billion a year.  However, you'd be paying some very heavy taxes on it.

Politicans would run on their own merits.  There would be no 'fund-raising', and each candidate would get equal time and coverage on TV and in the newspapers.. not matter how whoopee stupid their platform is.  Politicans would not make outrageous salaries, nor could t hey accept any gifts at all (even a whoopee puppy dog).  They'd be SERVING the state... not serving themselves.

There would be free healthcare for everybody.  There would be NO unemployment or food stamps, however, there WOULD be a guaranteed diddlying job for anyone who wanted one.  And it'd  be a job paying a living wage, since every job WOULD pay a living wage.  If someone is physically or mentally unable to work (like, honestly diddlyed up, not just a slacker) then there would be a fund to provide them with money so they could live.  

Although I haven't served in the military, I'd be in favor of mandatory military service after high school.  Furthermore, that would be how you earn your right to vote.  If you are a concientious objector, you can serve in a medical detachment.

I've gotta go eat dinner... chew on this for a while and I'll be back later.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2003, 10:46:18 PM »
Tito is a perfect case why communism doesnt work. The only reason that country survived was due to massive loans, which we never paid back,  from the west and support from the east as well because both sides wanted us to like them. In 1948 Tito told Stalin to diddly off and we went netural even sided with the west. Did you all know that until the mid 1960s Yugoslavia had a mainly western airfoce with F84s and F86 etc.  So our glorious socialism was only possible because the capitalist country was paying the bills to earn our favor.   As for human rights Tito was a wonderful guy. Not only did he never kill or hurt anyone he never put members of my family into concentration camps and nobody died in his prisons and no dissidents were murdered - all was cheery..


Toad:

How so Toad?  Have I been acting differently than I said after our big threads? That of being civil in other forums but not necccesarily so in o'club. I'm commited to being civil in the other forums in the future, are you?

Why is so hard for you to undrstand that I think we should act civily in the main community forums but  have more freedom in the unregualted off topic forums that often feature heated poilitical debate and off the wall bizzare topics.

Urchin:

I think in the main forums we should act in a civil manner, and I am willing to do that. In here in the o'club we can go at it attack and be attacked. I have no probnlem with that wheter i'm attacking or being attacked and I have never complained about that. I only argued there was a problem in the other forums about negative behavior and HTC agreed and we tried to work something out thrugh that discussion.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2003, 11:52:43 PM »
FWIW But I do think I go to far in here with my angry attacks... I'll have to think about that.

Offline Hangtime

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2003, 12:11:20 AM »
Just picture Grun wearing his leather crotchless strumfurher carb replete with Uboat skippers hat and monocle, pissed as hell at the butterin commies and banging away at his keyboard... how in hell can yah stay mad at him??
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...at home, or abroad.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2003, 12:18:08 AM »
LOL :D

Offline -tronski-

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2003, 12:56:52 AM »
hmmm I would think Cuba's government seems to be doing ok..what other communist/socialist country has so much western tourism?

 Tronsky
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Offline Hangtime

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2003, 12:59:31 AM »
Quote
hmmm I would think Cuba's government seems to be doing ok.


ROFL!!!

now THATS butterin funny!
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Urchin

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Capitalism is a pain in the arse
« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2003, 01:44:09 AM »
"Tito is a perfect case why communism doesnt work. The only reason that country survived was due to massive loans, which we never paid back, from the west and support from the east as well because both sides wanted us to like them. In 1948 Tito told Stalin to diddly off and we went netural even sided with the west. Did you all know that until the mid 1960s Yugoslavia had a mainly western airfoce with F84s and F86 etc. So our glorious socialism was only possible because the capitalist country was paying the bills to earn our favor. As for human rights Tito was a wonderful guy. Not only did he never kill or hurt anyone he never put members of my family into concentration camps and nobody died in his prisons and no dissidents were murdered - all was cheery.. "

Ok... but why is all the opression and murdering and putting people into concentration camps a 'communist thing'?  That sort of thing takes place all over the world.. it isn't a function of what kind of government is in place.  How is Yugoslavia any different than say Costa Rica or Columbia?