Author Topic: Affirmative Action (Read 7656 times)

NUKE · « **Reply #195 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:02:11 PM »

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Originally posted by Thrawn
Do you think that black people get any sort of advantage compared to white people in this field?

You just shot yourself and your argument down..

Weather you realise it or not.

Thrawn · « **Reply #196 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:09:42 PM »

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Originally posted by capt. apathy
no, but I don't think whites get any sort of racial advantage in employment or education either.

Are you saying that racism against blacks no longer plays a factor in optaining employment, getting promotions or obtaining education?

If so, what leads you to believe this?

Thrawn · « **Reply #197 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:11:43 PM »

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Originally posted by NUKE
You just shot yourself and your argument down..

Weather you realise it or not.

No YOU did.

NUKE · « **Reply #198 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:14:13 PM »

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Originally posted by Thrawn
No YOU did.

explain Thrawn

AKIron · « **Reply #199 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:17:09 PM »

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Originally posted by Thrawn
Do you think that black people get any sort of advantage compared to white people in this field?

I have to jump in here also. Isn't that the very basis for your claim that SATs are biased? Proof that SATs are racially biased is that minorities score lower. I could use the same argument that pro basketball discriminates against white men because of the disproportionate number of black men therein.

The real problem here is honesty and without it the problem will probably never be solved.

StSanta · « **Reply #200 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:22:18 PM »

Dudes, this is pretty simple. As has been pointed out many times before, it's not the race that matters, but cultural and socio-economic background.

So one can argue that a certain 'race' is more prone to having a specific socio-economic cultural background and thus should benefit from AA. Then again, a member of a different race could have the same background and be discriminated against.

Seems the best way is to give extra points based on cultural and socio-economic background. If something must be done at all.

The fact that there has been discrimination in the past does not justify discrimination in the present or in the future.

AA is akin to going to a restaurant and being told 'go away honkey/cupcake/spic/slant-eyes, we don't want more of your kind. Your ethnic background means you're not eligible for entry'. Quite insulting.

Two wrongs don't make a right. But three does

.

Thrawn · « **Reply #201 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:23:28 PM »

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Originally posted by NUKE
explain Thrawn

Bite me, you explain first. Mr. You-just-shot-yourself-and-your argument-down-Weather-you-realise-it-or-not.

AKIron said:

"Isn't that the very basis for your claim that SATs are biased? Proof that SATs are racially biased is that minorities score lower. I could use the same argument that pro basketball discriminates against white men because of the disproportionate number of black men therein. "

Good point.

AKIron · « **Reply #202 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:26:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by StSanta
Seems the best way is to give extra points based on cultural and socio-economic background. If something must be done at all.

Or, we could fix our educational system so that we don't have to lower our standards to the lowest common denominator.

BTW, it's two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

midnight Target · « **Reply #203 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:30:46 PM »

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Originally posted by Gunthr
And while you are at it Thrawn, please ask MT if he has ever personally been a victim of Affirmative Action, would you?

Somehow, I think its important.

Yes I have. Although I tend not to see it as victimization.

I was passed over for admittance to the school of Veterinary Medicine in Urbana Ill. I am pretty sure the cut off for whitre males was somewhat higher than for minorities.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #204 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:34:22 PM »

Are you saying that racism against blacks no longer plays a factor in optaining employment, getting promotions or obtaining education?

If so, what leads you to believe this?

****************
no, I'm not saying that it no longer exists. however, it isn't nearly as wide spread or severe as AA. and also not sanctioned by the gov't (which gives AA's racism legitamacy, much worse IMO). and blacks can fight the racism which exists in the courts on a case by case basis. when a white person says AA is discrimanating against me they are labled a racist.

mietla · « **Reply #205 on:** January 20, 2003, 07:57:47 PM »

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Originally posted by StSanta
Dudes, this is pretty simple. As has been pointed out many times before, it's not the race that matters, but cultural and socio-economic background.

No, it is not simple. The issue is not what causes disparities (race, culture, socio-ecomomics, region etc). The issue is whether it is a government's job to attempt to "compensate" people for them.

Some of us say yes, the government is responsible for pushing losers up and pulling winners down.

The rest of us say: no, there will always be disparities (even if the libs will push us into a full blown communism), so any attempt to equalize is futile and it will only breed resentment and class/group warfare. Gov should stay out of it.

And of course there is a Constitution (and certain laws) which AA obviously violates.

Gunthr · « **Reply #206 on:** January 20, 2003, 08:05:54 PM »

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gunthr
And while you are at it Thrawn, please ask MT if he has ever personally been a victim of Affirmative Action, would you?

Somehow, I think its important.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes I have. Although I tend not to see it as victimization.

I was passed over for admittance to the school of Veterinary Medicine in Urbana Ill. I am pretty sure the cut off for whitre males was somewhat higher than for minorities. - MT

__________________

Ahh, I have drawn you out of your safe closet once again.

I suppose it would be too much to ask you what year you applied to enter into the School of Veternary Medicine there?

Are you sure that you weren't passed over simply because your grades were too low, rather than due to Affirmative Action??

It seems unnecessary to point out that only high scoring white/non-minority males are discriminated against for their race under Affirmative Action in that setting.

Did you score well? When you say that you are "pretty sure" that the cut-off for white males was somewhat higher than that for minorities, does that mean that you are not quite "sure?"

For the final time, and if you refuse to answer, I will never ask you this question again:

How do you feel about Reparations - the cash payments allegedly due to Black Americans for past discrimination?"

If your answer would cause you too much public pain, I'll understand...

Kanth · « **Reply #207 on:** January 20, 2003, 08:21:57 PM »

Somewhere along the way it went from

'make sure that no one is descriminated against because of race/gender and have the equal opportunity for education and employment"

to 'make sure that there is a % representative of the population (be it city state or national) of this race/gender in all positions -- educational/employment because it should be that way for some reason'

one was implemented to solve a real problem, the second has come about through abuse of the intentions of the first.

There is a huge difference between

making sure that there isn't injustice and

making sure you have a certain percentage of people working/studying for you whether they are equally qualified or not because you feel that you owe them for something.

Show me a former slave that would like to attend college/ get a job (but is deficient in some way due to our government) and I'll show you the government tripping head over teakettle to make sure it happens for him.

Gunthr · « **Reply #208 on:** January 20, 2003, 08:23:31 PM »

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No, it is not simple. The issue is not what causes disparities (race, culture, socio-ecomomics, region etc). The issue is whether it is a government's job to attempt to "compensate" people for them.

- Mietla

I agree totally with Mietla, who sees the issue clearly. The real issue is whether you think that the US government should enact laws to artificially "raise up" some people, while at the same time "hold down" other people, based entirely on race.

Its wrong on the face of it. Our Constitution says its wrong.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #209 on:** January 20, 2003, 08:29:18 PM »

quote-It seems unnecessary to point out that only the highest scoring white/non-minority males are discriminated against for their race under Affirmative Action in that setting.

actually this is not true. those of privilage and those with top end scores will still get their schooling and jobs. the ones who get screwed by affirmitive action are those whites who find themselves in the position as the blacks. the ones being denied slots to provide them for the blacks are the whites who are just as bad off as them.

so your poorer white people are discriminated against in the same way blacks are plus the gov't (through AA) has declared open season. not only is it ok to discriminate against these people it will get you labled as 'kind', 'forward thinking', "hey you're part of the solution"

what a load of crap.