Author Topic: I rarely agree with Glassess  (Read 967 times)

Offline funkedup

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I rarely agree with Glassess
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2001, 08:26:00 PM »
     

     

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2001, 10:35:00 PM »
Funked.. I hate to break this to you, but those charts don't seem to be all that accurate (in general that is).  I believe the chart for the 190A8 says it can get 3.something K fpm initially.. that is a wet dream.  Maybe on 25% gas and 2 20mm cannons you can, but you aren't going to get much over 2750 on 100% gas, a DT, and 4 cannons.  

I'm reasonably certain that the same thing applies to the 109G6.  Adding the gondolas and the DT add weight, which drastically affect the climb rate.  The Spit doesn't have gondolas, so it's charts are more accurate to what people actually see in the game.

On a sort of related note, someone JUST did some climb tests with the 109s.  Here are the results they got.

 
Quote
I just did some rough climb tests:
Climb time to 20k 25% fuel
109F-4: 5'53 / WEP: 5'05 (average ft/min: 3399/3934)
109G-2: 5'41 / WEP: 5'01 (average ft/min: 3519/3987)
109G-6: 5'53 / WEP: 5'11 (avegare ft/min: 3399/3859)
109G-10: 5'36 / WEP: 4'27 (average ft/min: 3571/4494)

 

If you'll notice the charts, the 109G6 doesn't seem to drop below 3500 fpm until 20k.  However, this person got an average of 3859 fpm (which is, oddly enough, BETTER than what the chart says it should do, at least I think so).  This was on 25% fuel though, which means that he probably was out of gas right as he hit 20k.  Also, there would be a lot less weight on the plane than had he loaded it out with a typical MA configuration.

So I guess I have to ask.. HOW exactly are these climb charts made?  25% gas and absolutely nothing attached to the hardpoints?  It would be useful to know I think.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2001, 11:13:00 PM »
Urchin:

Actually the charts are extremely accurate.  I believe Pyro stated that the flight model calculations are used to produce them.  If there is a discrepancy between the game performance and the charts then you should make a bug report.  I did this (N1K2-J had climb rate error) and Pyro fixed it.

The charts are done for the same conditions generally used in real life flight tests.  100% internal fuel and standard ammo load.  No external tanks, bombs, rockets, gun pods, etc.  

Also those climb figures you posted are average figures.  I.e. altitude divided by time.  The figures on the charts are instantaneous figures.  They tell you what the maximum ROC is at each altitude.  They don't directly tell you anything about the time to climb to that altitude.

Finally, climb rate is very sensitive to the weight of the airplane.  So comparing 100% fuel tests to 25% fuel tests is not useful.

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline funkedup

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I rarely agree with Glassess
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2001, 03:05:00 PM »

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2001, 07:27:00 AM »
Back to the topic.

US guns and cannons: can shoot very far.

LW guns, VVS guns cannot.

It doesn't take a genius to learn that if you can open up at 500 instead of 300, you'll get more kills.

Won't comment on plane types, just the guns.

Offline Minotaur

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« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2001, 09:15:00 AM »
For sure I hear many more LW plane whines than any other.

Offline Glasses

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« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2001, 11:44:00 AM »
Yeah Well mino sometimes the whines considerend here are some fair arguments but then again I speak to the "Laser" people.

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2001, 01:53:00 PM »
S!

I don't consider myself a LW flyer, although I do fly their planes a lot.

I notice nobody mentions the 190A5?

Sure the G10 is a monster, and the D9 isn't far behind, but the A5 is really a fine plane.

I've been flying the A5 lately as practice for BIG WEEK, (I wanted to fly a Jug but I registered late...)

I usually fly it without the outboard FF Cannon.  (more than 2 cannon with the damage the way it is in AH is overkill)  I load a droptank, and 3/4 fuel.

When you do that, you've got a plane which can be really dangerous.  You climb to 20,000, drop your tank and engage.  At 20,000 ft, the A5 is a quick plane, topping out at around 420mph.  By the time you are down to lower levels, you are at 50% fuel, and with the A5 at 50% fuel, you can outturn a lot of planes.  

Plus your climb and acceleration is excellent.  And of course, that roll rate...  :)

With the A5 you can run WEP almost forever.  The engine just doesn't get hot.

You can outturn La-7's, Jugs and D9's, you can outvertical P-51's and P-38's, outrun Spits and Zekes.

The only planes which are a big problem are N1K2's and 109's, especially the F4.

Plus the 190 doesn't have the biggest range.

But overall, a good plane.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2001, 08:30:00 AM »
You can outturn La-7's, Jugs and D9's, you can outvertical P-51's and P-38's, outrun Spits and Zekes.

I'd like to comment on this one.

In the A5, you can outturn the D9 in a sustained turn. Of course, a smart D9 driver will keep speed up and do not hard turns but long, slow ones. Hit wep, bring it above 5k, and you'll be able to b&z the A5. Not kill him easily mind you, since he has the turning advantage, but at least have the offensive.

The LA-7 easily outturns the A5 at all altitudes. The difference is lowest between 0-5k where the A5 really shines. Not sure if the LA-7 outaccelerates the A5 below 5k, but it certainly does above 5k. It also has top speed, better low speed handling and better high altitude maneuvering. It should have: it's a much later plane than the A5.

The D11 will, in a sustained turnfight, outturn the A5 at all but the lowest altitudes. It has much superior low speed characteristics and can use its flaps to gain the advantage. The two other P-47s will be outturned by the A5 at quite low altitudes, but again, the use of flaps can cause the 190 pilots to drop so much speed he simply cannot follow. Break off or stall in. Depends on altitude. The A5 has roll rate and a great diving snapshot ability that the P-47 lacks. On the other hand, the P-47 has better guns. I made a comparison on the proper forum (aircraft and vehicles) a while back between these planes. Also got some secret testing which yielded interesting results - results I'll keep for myself since I want to live when fighting P-47s  :).

The P-51 outturns the A5 handily. In the vertical, given the same speed and g pull on the pullup, there were some tests done before, and IIRC, the results were very similar. As altitude increased, the advantage fell on the P-51. And, the P-51 easily wins a loop fight. The A5, however, can outaccelerate the P-51 at low altitudes and with a little smart flying (not going into specifics, wanna keep this one a LW secret too) get a good shot on a P-51 that chooses to saddle up. And, of course, much better roll rate.

It is important to keep in mind that the A5's engine really isn't optimized for high altitude - it's very good up to 5k, good tfrom 5 to 10, and bad from there up.

The P-38 has acceleration and turn rate on the A5. Again, at low altitudes, the A5 shines. The P-38 will also outloop the A5. I've seen Zigrat, Tac, Citabria and others use the P-38 really well: it usually has one advantage over each plane (except things like the LA-7) and as with the G10, if a good guy is behind the stick, it is a very lethal plane that just isn't very newbie friendly and takes time to get used to.

The A5 is a relatively slow plane, especially for a B&Z'er. It's faster than the dedicated turn fighters like the Spits, Hurricanes and zeros, but that's where the speed advantage really stops.  The Spit XI is faster at high altitudes. YAK's, LA's, P-51s, P-47s etc are faster.

It's a great plane, but it shows that it's not a late war über plane.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2001, 11:39:00 AM »
Quote
Most of the things I've would of posted are now said . The LW crowd have to be more aware of their surroundings, much more aware of how they're going in shoot and look at aspect of the target, go in less than 450yards to make the kill and zoom considerably farther away to get any survivability.  

This is only a LW thingie? Hmmm...didn't know that.

Good SA is the sign of a sharp pilot...not related to the ride.

Try to setup a shot in any ride at 300ias or better and tell me it's easy to find the aspect for that shot without some thought.

Pull the trigger at 450? I never pull until inside of 300...my convergence is set at 225-250-275. I don't drive LW.

If you LW gals are gonna tell stories, at least make them entertaining :)


 

Offline SOB

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« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2001, 05:33:00 PM »

 

Pointless post of the day #2.


SOB
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline Glasses

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« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2001, 11:17:00 PM »
LOL!  one of the less enlightened days. Back when....

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2001, 12:43:00 AM »
Rude, I've had my convergence set at 125 - doesn't make my guns potential any less  :)

Ask animal: I hit 'im consistantly out to d1.4 in the Ta  :).

Also, have flown in the TA - in Spits, because we lacked some spit pilots. Ask my fellow squaddies how they liked my 250mph 500 yard snapshots  :).