Author Topic: Why Germany is not supporting the US policy on Iraq. (Read 1745 times)

AKIron · « **Reply #15 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:05:01 AM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
I see your Marshal Plan, and raise you a Statue of Liberty. Who owes who really depends on how far back in history you care to look. Today's America is not the same as it was 60 years ago, just as today's Germany is not the same.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you father or grandfather (depends on your age) for what he and his generation did for us Europeans. You? ... You have done nothing for me.

The little matter of the cold war comes to mind.

You hit the nail on the head Wabbit.

bounder · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:27:18 AM »

No one in here is seriously suggesting that Germany should back the US policy on Iraq because of the Marshall Plan?

Are they?

Please say they aren't.

AKIron · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:27:35 AM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
And exactly what should we be grateful for with regard to the Cold War AKIron?

How about that you're not now a member of the Soviet Union?

Dowding · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:28:30 AM »

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I would like to take this opportunity to thank you father or grandfather (depends on your age) for what he and his generation did for us Europeans. You? ... You have done nothing for me.

Damned right Gscholz - my sentiments exactly.

Percentages more realistically relfect the Aid effort, Toad. Donation as a percentage of GNI is far more telling. Of course, the US gives more in monetary terms - it has a huge poopulation and a huge amount of money in its coffers from taxation.

Even assuming your figures about 'unofficial' donations are 100% correct, and factoring them into the equation for the %GNI calculations, the US is still way behind the top 5 in the GNI league.

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No one in here is seriously suggesting that Germany should back the US policy on Iraq because of the Marshall Plan?

Are they?

Please say they aren't.

That's exactly what they are saying, Bounder. Here and in other threads.

It would seem everything has a price.

Habu · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:32:09 AM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
Yes, interesting numbers Toad. Seems like little Norway with 4.5 million people pays more than 13% of what the USA with 285 million people pay. And btw. we don't expect to get our money back ... with or without interest. We don't consider this a loan, but AID.

And exactly what should we be grateful for with regard to the Cold War AKIron?

Yes and I am sure Norway contributes just as much as the US does to world security in the form of the defense spending and deployment of international troops.

It is all well and good to say Norway is a hero and the US is a goat, but I don't buy it. Norway does not have to go in and disarm North Korea if they decide to launch a few nukes. Norway did not have to fund the cold war that stopped the USSR from taking over Europe. Norway did not make up most of the force that went in and stopped the Bosnian war. (A European war) Nobody complains when the US picks up the tab.

Include the cost of keeping the world safe in the figures and I think you would find the US outspends everyone many times over.

And in the US there are countless private charities and NGO's that do much of the work that Norway's government aid would do.

AKIron · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:35:57 AM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
It would seem everything has a price.

Foolish to think otherwise.

Daff · « **Reply #21 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:36:07 AM »

"Hey was he in the Hitler Youth?

I thought I heard that somewhere?

Just curious if it was true."

Even if he was, it wouldnt mean anything. Pretty much *any* organized youth activity (sports, etc) got pulled in under Hitler Jugend. It's not like they had a choice.

Daff

Toad · « **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2003, 10:01:52 AM »

Pick your stats to take pride in; if a GNP percentage of "aid" makes you feel good, go for it.

I'm very comfortable with the contributions the US has made towards progress for the human race and peace in the world through various means and methodologies in the 20th Century.

AKIron · « **Reply #23 on:** February 04, 2003, 10:01:56 AM »

Your attitude is pretty typical GScholz of those with a debt they are unwilling to recognize. Lucky for you many of us are willing to overlook your ungratefulness and make the sacrifice anyways.

fffreeze220 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 04, 2003, 10:08:14 AM »

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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Well, I tell you what. Since most of the countries we gave all that money to (Marshal Plan) are now economic powerhouses (thanks to us), why don't we just add up the total plus standard interest rate, an you pay it back? In real cash please, none of that euro-monopoly money.

Any man who had half an ounce of self respect would be eager to pack back any one who loaned him money when he was down on his luck as soon as he was flush again.

Of course there is the other kind of man. The one who secretly resents the lender because it only reminds them of their own weakness and bad mouths them any chance they get. They try their best to forget they were ever given the money and get all irritated when someone mentions it.

Wab

(clap clap clap clap)

Good boy now SIT !

Dowding · « **Reply #25 on:** February 04, 2003, 10:19:41 AM »

I don't doubt it Toad, the US has made a great contribution. But if you had a billion people and the tax revenue that goes with it, and still gave the same amount, surely you see measuring by % of GDP is much more realistic? It's like measuring how much each person is giving.

AkIron - did you fight in WW2? Or contribute to the Marshall Plan? What exactly do I owe you?

Toad · « **Reply #26 on:** February 04, 2003, 10:31:40 AM »

I think measuring what is/has been given would have to go beyond a mere dollar value reflected as a percentage of GNP.

That is merely one aspect, one way of measuring the contribution(s) that a particular nation has made towards human progress/global security/world peace/etc. Do these totals include all governmental aid? Cash, food, building projects, technical expertise? I don't actually know what the numbers represent. Do you?

As I said, in taken in toto and considering a multitude of other contributory aspects, I am VERY comfortable with the contributions made by the citizens of the US either individually or governmentally in the 20th Century.

But if some choose to make a percentage of GNP contributed as "aid" the sole recognizable factor of national worth or compassion or whatever it is supposed to represent... that's fine by me. Everyone has to have something to hang their hat on, to take pride in.

AKIron · « **Reply #27 on:** February 04, 2003, 10:31:54 AM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
AkIron - did you fight in WW2? Or contribute to the Marshall Plan? What exactly do I owe you?

I'm too young to have fought in WWII, though I have/had two uncles that did and my grandfather came to your rescue in WWI.

I did however spend 20 years in the military, 7 of it in foreign countries, far from my father, mother, brothers and sisters, 2 of it from my wife and kids.

Do you owe me anything? I didn't do it for you or GScholz. I did it because it made me feel good about being a part of the strength of an idealistic nation that has, among other things, the goal of a democratic world.

Do I even want your gratitude? Not really. Recognition that my country isn't an evil empire out to subjugate the world? That I do want.

Angus · « **Reply #28 on:** February 04, 2003, 10:38:35 AM »

GScholz, my dear friend. Communism came to several countries in a quite military manner. And the Iron curtain through germany was quite ineffective against invasion, its main role being to keep people INSIDE.
None the less, the Americans did nothing to help the Fins keep the Russians away, did they? If anyone, then first the Brits, then the Germans. So, there you have it for WW2 at least, - USA did not save the north.
However there is another matter about central Europe. If there had been no invasion of Normandy, where would the Iron curtain have fallen? Without the US, there would have been no D-day.
So, USA deserves quite some credit to their contribution to the free world, - perhaps not as much as they tend to think though.
Mind you, that the US sat by while Germany rolled over the mainland of Europe, bombed the crap out of the British, sank ships all over the globe, etc. etc, - not did the US enter before they were attacked themselves. It was actually Germany who declared war on the USA!!!!!
But countries either passed through or conquered by the US forces were not forced into submission, but treated very fairly. I doubt there has been any force in world's history so gentle to the countries under it's feet than the Anglo-American forces in WW2.
Lets not forget that as well
Anyway, Habu....are you German? doubt so. You see, Schroder's co-op party are the German GREEN party, and those hold the minister of foreign affairs for instant. They are total pacifists, and this is also their first time in office. Lots of hair and fur in those politics, yeacchhh

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #29 on:** February 04, 2003, 10:41:38 AM »

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Originally posted by Toad
Pick your stats to take pride in; if a GNP percentage of "aid" makes you feel good, go for it.

Hm. Well, since people insist on looking at % GDP as the "true" measure of a country's contribution to a cause, I thought I'd look up the % GDP spent by the United States on the military.

According to this site, the United States isn't even in the top 30 countries in the world in military spending as a percentage of GDP, though it is by far the first in overall money spent.

I guess this means the United States isn't such a military powerhouse after all if you look at % GDP.

-- Todd/Leviathn