What happens if you die?

[Arlo]

And this line of reasoning makes this a good idea? Why should AHII:TOD have an additional factor worked into it to discourage players? Some of us just ain't hot sticks. That doesn't mean we won't enjoy and appreciate a non-MA setting. Telling a player that they're probably more suited for AHC instead doesn't sound like a formula for success. There will already be players that won't like it just because it won't have the non-stop action of furballs in the MA.

 And yes .... I can easily picture dying 5 times straight ... even after "earning my wings" in training. I am the epitomy of the non-MA minded player that's a natural bullet magnet. I don't care if I don't gain rank or points ... but I don't wanna have to go back to training because I'm having my usual streak of bad luck (sometimes I manage to run across better sticks than I on a regular basis - go figure).

 What's an acceptable player attrition rate? Even if only 10 percent get demoted back to cadet and have to start the training process all over again (while their squadies enjoy squadnight in TOD) .... how many of them do you think will put up with that? What will you say? Good riddance?

 (Shakes head and mutters)

 There has to be an element of game fun maintained for all players. Immersion is fine but don't go overboard and try to make it "force" players to not take chances. How fun is that?

Originally posted by Batz
you'd have to die 5 times in 5 straight sorties to get demoted back to cadet. Thats if we use the above point system. If you are going fly like that then why bother? There will be far more action in AHC.

 

[Midnight]

Originally posted by Arlo
And this line of reasoning makes this a good idea? Why should AHII:TOD have an additional factor worked into it to discourage players? Some of us just ain't hot sticks. That doesn't mean we won't enjoy and appreciate a non-MA setting. Telling a player that they're probably more suited for AHC instead doesn't sound like a formula for success. There will already be players that won't like it just because it won't have the non-stop action of furballs in the MA.

 And yes .... I can easily picture dying 5 times straight ... even after "earning my wings" in training. I am the epitomy of the non-MA minded player that's a natural bullet magnet. I don't care if I don't gain rank or points ... but I don't wanna have to go back to training because I'm having my usual streak of bad luck (sometimes I manage to run across better sticks than I on a regular basis - go figure).

 What's an acceptable player attrition rate? Even if only 10 percent get demoted back to cadet and have to start the training process all over again (while their squadies enjoy squadnight in TOD) .... how many of them do you think will put up with that? What will you say? Good riddance?

 (Shakes head and mutters)

 There has to be an element of game fun maintained for all players. Immersion is fine but don't go overboard and try to make it "force" players to not take chances. How fun is that?

It's amazing to me that people want to whine about how poorly they play, and the game should be structured so that they can still be succesful. That is exactly why HTC will leave the existing game as AHC. So people with only a few minutes to play, who haven't improved their skills, who don't want to deal with a structured mission invironment, and don't care about their scores can still play and do what they want.

It also allows players who DO care about completing their mission, yet doing so in a manner that allows them to get home when the job is done.

Hopefully, AH ToD will be a game/sim for players who want to play in an enviroment where their actions, as well as their countrymates can have a real effect on what happens next. If HTC is going to put all kinds of buffers into the game to prevent people from being "discouraged" with their poor performance, then I hope they don't even bother putting in the effort.

With any luck, ToD will be more realistic, in the sense that if you fail too often, your superiors will remove you until such time you can improve. Why should every game cater to the newbie or the casual player? Why can't the simmer's have a simulation with out the gamer's whining that it is too hard?

Please play AHC and join a squad. Fly in the current ToDs and improve your skills for missions. There are plenty of places to practice and get better. Please don't ask that AH ToD should not have penalties for poor performance. Let us have a simulation please. Thank you.

[Wilbus]

Sounds freaking great to me, can't wait!

[Arlo]

 You can't seem to grasp the simple fact that telling players that want to play and enjoy a game (or variant of it) that since they obviously aren't good at it they should take up something else (or play the "Jr. variant") is being presumptuous.

  I'm not whining about my skill or lack of it. I'm tellin' ya that creating a reward system need not include a punishment system that makes a player who otherwise can enjoy the game in spite of his "ranking" miserable. I enjoy gettin' shot down as much as I do shooting down others (well ... almost ). But I sure as hell don't wanna be forced to bow out of the rest of the nights festivities with my friends (or have one of them forced to) because "Midnight" thinks punishing the lesser skilled player enhances his woody factor.

True realism would mean a real life headstone on the very first death .... or being cashiered out with no chance of return if you prove to be a liability. Why not? After all, we want this sim to be as realistic as possible, right?

Originally posted by Midnight
It's amazing to me that people want to whine about how poorly they play, and the game should be structured so that they can still be succesful. That is exactly why HTC will leave the existing game as AHC.

If HTC is going to put all kinds of buffers into the game to prevent people from being "discouraged" with their poor performance, then I hope they don't even bother putting in the effort.

With any luck, ToD will be more realistic, in the sense that if you fail too often, your superiors will remove you until such time you can improve. ( You've GOT to be kidding! - A.G.) Why should every game cater to the newbie or the casual player? Why can't the simmer's have a simulation with out the gamer's whining that it is too hard? (Comes off presumptuous and arrogant. - A.G.)

Please play AHC and join a squad. Fly in the current ToDs and improve your skills for missions. There are plenty of places to practice and get better. Please don't ask that AH ToD should not have penalties for poor performance. Let us have a simulation please. Thank you. (Comes off presumptuous and arrogant. - A.G.)

[Batz]

"Skillz" Have nothing to do with "flying to live". Anyone can "fly to live" that means that using your brain so that you dont put yourself in a position where you need superior "killz" to survive.

Apparently you cant grasp that. Any death effects every one equally. If you cant hack it, or cant fly in a manner that doesnt expose yourself to being killed consistantly then AH2:C is what you want.

Theres another player base that wants something more. We expect those who fly with us to live. We expect those who fly with us to fly in a manner that reduces the risk to the unit.

If you care not to fly that way then why worry about what goes on in AH2:ToD?

The object is to survive 1st and fore most, then complete the mission successfully.

Gameplay is not comparable to the main or even current scenarios. Death means something. Dont die. This may not attract the typical gamer.......

"I just want a few kills"

Squads like Midnight's and mine will want some thing that isa more then the main. At the same time we care little about base capture, resets etc..... We would like to fly in a "situation" where it matters not only in what you kill but if you survive.

You assume only those with superior "skillz" will benefit. Thats bs. A squad that may not be particularly skilled as individual pilots can do well if they work well together.

You are looking at it as "how can I have an impact". Well alone you cant. Regardless of skill.

HT has said that AH2:ToD would be like an RPG. Theres a tourney in IL2 called Dead is Dead (DiD). Where if you die you loose your current name. That avatar is dead. You start over from the bottom with a new name if you die.

If you care nothing about rank or "living" then AH2:ToD may not be for you. But even if you die and start from cadet why should that matter? Especially, if you dont care if you "stay at the bottom".

HT hasnt said that "cadet" missions will be the same always. He hasnt said what that will mean except that after completing them successfully they will get you a "rank".

So if you dont care about "living" then it shouldnt matter if it says "cadet" or "general" by your name.

We can assume that higher ranked players get better equipment and missions but until HT says something we dont know.

Its not so much about "skillz" as it is about flying smart and doing your duty. Your duty is not to die and do your best to complete your mission. Flying smart means knowing how to balance the 2.

[Beefcake]

From the way it sounds, it's going to suck to be a bomber pilot in AH:TOD.

[Batz]

Not really, bomber missions will be supplemented with ai, and hopefully a bomber "mission" will be accompanied by an escort "mission".

So the attacker will see lotsa bombers and some escorts. They need to attack stop the enemy mission and rtb.

Theres equal risk all the way around. Atleast imho.......

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Batz
"Skillz" Have nothing to do with "flying to live".

 (Shakes head in wonder)

 So you're trying to convince me that AHII:TOD will take no skill? Or are you trying to convince me that AHII:TOD ... is the "thinking man's game of fear and loathing"?

 Yaya .... can't grasp how making players go through "training" again if they die too much benefits the game. Can't grasp how other players can impose thier "live at any cost" values on others and think they're doing the community a favor (valor may be cheap in cyberspace but that makes being too scared to risk your virtual butt even weaker). Can't grasp how you and Midnight think telling other players to stick with (or go to) the MA is going to help AHII:TOD.

 It's one thing to encourage teamwork, mission oriented flying and trying to survive. It's quite another to discourage players from even trying by taking away their regular flight privs and making them have to go back through the training because they died one too many times. Once a player recieves the training, that should be enough .... for all of their avatars.

 A reward system doesn't require a punishment system to go along with it just because someone isn't inclined to run from a fight (or leave a buddy in the lurch) to protect their points (or prevent their avatar's fifth death while still a butterbar). If you two really think this is going to be the ultimate goal of AHII:TOD, then good luck. Hope you enjoy it for what it's worth. (Though I suspect it wouldn't be popular enough to survive.)

 I'm all for the challenge of surviving a mission. But I'm also for the challenge of the mission that's hard to survive.

 I hope there's plenty of milkrun missions for you guys to slowly stock up your advancement points.
 
 

Originally posted by Batz

Anyone can "fly to live" that means that using your brain so that you dont put yourself in a position where you need superior "killz" to survive.

Apparently you cant grasp that. Any death effects every one equally. If you cant hack it, or cant fly in a manner that doesnt expose yourself to being killed consistantly then AH2:C is what you want.

Theres another player base that wants something more. We expect those who fly with us to live. We expect those who fly with us to fly in a manner that reduces the risk to the unit.

If you care not to fly that way then why worry about what goes on in AH2:ToD?

The object is to survive 1st and fore most, then complete the mission successfully.

Gameplay is not comparable to the main or even current scenarios. Death means something. Dont die. This may not attract the typical gamer.......

"I just want a few kills"

Squads like Midnight's and mine will want some thing that isa more then the main. At the same time we care little about base capture, resets etc..... We would like to fly in a "situation" where it matters not only in what you kill but if you survive.

You assume only those with superior "skillz" will benefit. Thats bs. A squad that may not be particularly skilled as individual pilots can do well if they work well together.

You are looking at it as "how can I have an impact". Well alone you cant. Regardless of skill.

HT has said that AH2:ToD would be like an RPG. Theres a tourney in IL2 called Dead is Dead (DiD). Where if you die you loose your current name. That avatar is dead. You start over from the bottom with a new name if you die.

If you care nothing about rank or "living" then AH2:ToD may not be for you. But even if you die and start from cadet why should that matter? Especially, if you dont care if you "stay at the bottom".

HT hasnt said that "cadet" missions will be the same always. He hasnt said what that will mean except that after completing them successfully they will get you a "rank".

"Quote" from the AHII:TOD FAQ:

5. If your points go to 0 you are demoted back to a cadet and have to go back (through) training.  [/i]


So if you dont care about "living" then it shouldnt matter if it says "cadet" or "general" by your name.

We can assume that higher ranked players get better equipment and missions but until HT says something we dont know.

Its not so much about "skillz" as it is about flying smart and doing your duty. Your duty is not to die and do your best to complete your mission. Flying smart means knowing how to balance the 2.

[Karnak]

I agree with Arlo.  There is no reason to force players out by sending them back down to the minors so to speak.

If you die too often then you simply shouldn't advance in rank.  That alone is enough of a penalty.  With that setting we aren't asking for auto success, after all failing to advance in rank isn't success, its failure.


I have no doubt that I could easily survive and advance in rank if I flew P-51Ds.  That'd be so easy its not even funny.

For bombers it depends if the enemy can easily identify the player bombers from the AI bombers and how many AI bombers there are.  Given how hard it is to stay in formation right now and the lack of fire from player bombers I'd guess it'll be very easy to single out the player controled bombers, just look for the bomber that is out of formation, drifting or rolling around.  Kill that and you've deprived a player of a "life".

What I will probably fly (assuming its available) is the Mosquito FB.VI.  Due to the low altitude profile of Mosquito Fighter-Bomber missions I suspect that it will be very difficult to not be sent back to training on a very regular basis and nigh impossible to advance in rank.  The Fw190D-9 and Bf109G-10 are simply too fast for the Mossie to use its historical escape method.

[Wilbus]

If there is no "punishment" for people who die to many times then there will be no will to live either (for most players). Sure you may get slightly better things if you live but this alone is not enough to make people want to stay alive and not going in in suicide attacks. training camp probarly won't take too long.

Arlo, to me it seams as if you have never flown a special event. I've flown lots of them, I have flown with new people (hell some of them have been on their 2 week trail) and I've seen them survive, maybe not get many or any kills but they have survived because they have flown smart, they have stayed together with the more experienced players and been covered like it and they have understood the meaning of teamwork.

If you don't have the system that puts them back in training after they die 5 times before getting a higher rank they will surely not care about living.

[Ghosth]

Wilbuz has it right.

Its not about score, or punishment, or skillz, or any of that.

HT is trying to make a new thing where people HAVE  to care about not dieing.

Death will HURT you.
Flying to stay alive & complete the mission will pay off.

Think about what that means.

A if your outnumbered its better to RTB than suicide yourself in a furball.

B No more suicide jabo attacks!
You'd get exactly 5 before you'r pulled from the lineup.

This isn't about elliteism, or skillz,
or anything else. Its about LIVING and returning to base first, mission accomplished 2nd.

That being said, hes not changing what we have now. Want to go suicide 18 times in a row into a furball or field fine, do it in the MAIN!

But those of us who have dreamed of something better for 5 or 6 years finally get a chance at it.

[Arlo]

You've the same presumptuous attitude that Midnight has, Wilbus. I've participated in ( and in some cases, helped design) online events off and on for the last five years. I don't like melee style arenas on the whole and will only fly in them when the CT is broken or underpopulated.

 This "there needs to be a punishment or players won't care about keeping their avatar alive" rationale doesn't float. Events have never required players to stop participating in them because they didn't fair as well as others. Players should never have their normal arena participation revoked because of anything other than TOS violations.

 There is already motivation to keep deaths from reaching a certain level- positive motivation. Adding negative motivation to that is overkill (and detrimental to encouraging new players to invest time and money in it). Even the experienced event player isn't going to appreciate having his regular flight privs limited just because he didn't measure up to the "chicken chart".

 Again ... sending a player back to "bootcamp" after they already paid those dues just because they fail to measure up to an arbitrary "survival criteria" is not going to enhance the game.

 GhostH ... there's plenty of reason for a player to care about their avatar's survival without taking it to the level of revoking their regular flight privs. You ARE sounding elitist and foolish. And you're not the only one to dream of a more immersive enviroment to participate in. I've posted on numerous occasions (here and elsewhere) about my vision of the future of mmp combat sims that entailed rank, recognition, R&D, strat, dynamics of war and politics .... and survival.

 FORCING players to fly your way or quit the game by revoking their regular flight privs isn't going to help. ENCOURAGING players through a sensible reward system may.

[Wilbus]

FORCING players to fly your way or quit the game by revoking their regular flight privs isn't going to help. ENCOURAGING players through a sensible reward system may.

They are not in any way forced to play "our" way. The normal arena will still be there if they do not find the challenge of staying alive fun, many people will still fly in the normal "Main" Arena.

There won't be just the elitist flying in there, every skill from extreem newbie to an old vet will be found in there, but if they can't handle being killed (thus getting a small punishment if killed 5 times in a row) they might find the MA funnier.

It's about living, not getting ## amount of kills or suicide a field or a CV. If you live, you're awarded. If you die, you die. To me it seams pretty generous to even have 5 lives.

So bascily, I do not at all agree with you Arlo.

[Gwjr2]

So to rise in rank we need 1000 points at 10 for a sucessful mission? isnt that like 100 missions with no loses? sounds a little low for points for doing something right..........

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Wilbus
They are not in any way forced to play "our" way. The normal arena will still be there if they do not find the challenge of staying alive fun, many people will still fly in the normal "Main" Arena.

 Nooo ... that's EXACTLY what you're advocating. "Play my way ... which entails taking as few risks as possible ... or go play in the normal main arena."

Originally posted by Wilbus
There won't be just the elitist flying in there, every skill from extreem newbie to an old vet will be found in there, but if they can't handle being killed (thus getting a small punishment if killed 5 times in a row) they might find the MA (more to their liking).

 And I'm tellin' ya .... bad idea. Forcing players to go back through training after an arbitrary number of deaths because you percieve that as an indicator that they prefer MA furballs and need to have an attitude adjustment is elitist and foolish.

Originally posted by Wilbus
It's about living, not getting ## amount of kills or suicide a field or a CV. If you live, you're awarded. If you die, you die. To me it seams pretty generous to even have 5 lives.

 Making suicide jabo runs and running headlong into enemy swarms, going berzerk and dying in a blaze of glory appears to be the only way you can see players not living "up" to your "chicken chart" criteria.

I hate to inform you (not really) ... that there's also players that sacrifice their virtual lives to help team mates in trouble. And what are you gonna do if HT decides to nix some of the gamey icon and dar info and your "danger avoidance" skills that you've spent your entire AH career developing is now drastically handicapped? Sure ... you'll be harder to find and ID ... but AH isn't just an endless game of hide and seek. Sooner or later you'll have to engage the enemy (ya reckon?) and you may have to deal with suddenly being outnumbered, surrounded .... maybe lower and slower. Are you really confident that you'll never run into a streak of bad luck that ends up sending you back to bootcamp? How will you handle all the jeers and leers of those who will call you an MA dweeb?

 Well, I hope, for your sake, you can maintain the delusion that any player who dies too many times in a row doesn't care "to fit in" to your particular point of view of what a "good event player" is. Then again ... maybe they don't.

Originally posted by Wilbus
So bascily, I do not at all agree with you Arlo.

 Obviously. We can at least agree on that.