What happens if you die?

[Arlo]

No, dufe ... you're the one with the "fear factor" buzz. Players gotta be afraid to die too much ... and the only way to do that is to threaten them with a "time out". Me? I'd like to see the TOD do well. It won't when players start getting recycled through training for dying too much. I already said demotions and point loss are fine. Others have suggested rhip in other ways such as equipment reliability and mission flexability and have recieved some favorable replies. That's what's called positive motivation. Something you apparently haven't experienced much of.

You can hop up and down all you want that you want others to shut up and not suggest a better way to do things when they see an obvious flaw being proposed. But that's your problem, not mine, Woe-tan.

Here's a motivation that's proved to work well in helping games succeed ... it's called "fun".

Originally posted by Batz
Have you gone insane? you direct a point at me, then claim it aint about me........

I am not designing anything, I am not demanding ht do anything. You are. I just posted my support for what ht has said so far.

You are the one with problem, you are the one "afraid" to go back to training. Not me.

I am not telling you to fly my way, you are telling me. You can fly how you want in the main, you can set your "who cares if I die missions" up in the main. You have everything you want already.

Now you want to piss and moan that you may not ever get out of training. Well I dont care if you do.

You get the same "punishment" as everyone else. If you die a lot then you get demoted. Thats why AH2:ToD has been referred to as an rpg. Its not about "cool" missions. Its about creating a different style of gameplay thats more in touch with "reality" then the main. If its not for you have a choice. To advance you need to complete the mission. But the mission is not the "end all".

[Charon]

I imagine HTC will work to find a balance that encourages people to both succeed at a mission and survive. If you escort bombers and they get decimated but you survive by running away I would hope the result is comparable to dying from a points advancement standpoint. HT has indicated that is the way the scoring will be modeled, so I figure we just have to wait and see how it specifically comes out during beta.

Punishing players for dying too much by making them have to go back through training is overkill. It's not going to help TOD. It's going to hurt it.

I get the impression, Arlo, that you don't want to go through training more than once . I understand you'll probably be a serious player and this would be an inconvenience for you. But, what about the intentional griefier? The guy who will go into every mission with the intention of being the bad boy -- someone who gets his kicks by being disruptive. Or even the guy who says, I'm going to play this my way and the hell with you team guys, I pay my $15..."

Obviously, Arlo, that won't be you but don't kid yourself that these individuals will be absent. Just busting them to low rank doesn't matter to them. All they need is a plane and a slot to fill to win at "their" game. Advancing, etc. has nothing to do with "their" game, and the proactive penalties of non-advancement are non-issues. And, as long as they don't technically break the official rules of the arena, then there is nothing to stop them from interfering with you enjoyment and that of your teammates. “Hey, I pay my $15 and I'm going to..."

Unlike a scenario, there is no event manager to drop them. You likely will not be able to exclude them from your mission. TOD isn't a 1-life event (we could always go that route - one life per person per 24-hour similar to the “punishment” for death in scenarios).
 
So, the training thing is like killshooter. Not optimal for most players, but a necessity to protect gameplay from griefiers. I understand your concerns, and don't want to go through repeated training myself -- but -- what is your alternative? What would be your workable solution for the griefier/"don't give a damm about rank" individuals?

Charon

[Midnight]

Arlo

A game does not have to be forgiving to the unskilled, or poorly trained or people with little time, or whatever.

Ever Go Skiiing or Ice skating? When people fist go, some are naturals, others can hardly stand up. Some people quit because they can't learn, or don't like it. Other people aren't good, but they love it and decide to learn, regardless of how discouraging it might be.

Some people stilll try to learn how to ski on the bunny trail, even when their friends are at the summit skiing the black diamond trails.

Ever played golf? Some people TOTALLY suck at it, yet they still play. Why? Because they want to learn to play better and do better the next time, regardless of the "Discouragement" they felt the last time they played.

Ever played tennis? Some people TOTALLY suck at it, yet they still play. Why? Because they want to learn to play better and do better the next time, regardless of the "Discouragement" they felt the last time they played.

Ever played softball? Some people TOTALLY suck at it, yet they still play. Why? Because they want to learn to play better and do better the next time, regardless of the "Discouragement" they felt the last time they played.

Sure, AHII, TOD will be a video game / simulation, but WHY should it be so EASY that every one can play and not be discouraged and get their feelings hurt?

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

AHC is the place to LEARN and improve your skill set without having to worry about what happens. AH ToD will be the place to prove that you learned what works and that you are capable of performing. If you don't like it, then don't play ToD, just don't ask that the game should be designed with no penalties for being shot down or screwing up. The idea is, maybe once pilots achieve a certain rank, they will be able to be in more 'critical' missions, and they will be able to count on the other pilots who have the same rank, rather than having to worry if some 'newbie' is going to blow the whole mission, or be some (love muffin) spy with a false account intentionally screwing things up for everyone else.

[Batz]

Arlo I think its gonna be great watching you whine through repeated training. For that reason alone I am for it.

Just reading your replies here about something thats not even made yet gives me hope for the future. I cant wait.

Everything you want is in the main now.

Here's a motivation that's proved to work well in helping games succeed ... it's called "fun".

I think it sounds fun as originally described by HT. You are just upset because folks arent agreeing with your idea of "fun". You can have your style of fun now in the main.

You can hop up and down all you want that you want others to shut up and not suggest a better way to do things when they see an obvious flaw being proposed. But that's your problem, not mine, Woe-tan.

Hop up and down? All I am doing is disagreeing with you. When did I say "shut up". I just pointed out everything you seem to want is already there in the main. "Obvious flaw"? No what I see is HT addressing a "key concept" by including a "death penalty" on the bottom feeders. This is needed to deal with the very thing mwhun brought up and what Charon has described for you. If thats not for you then theres the main.

and the only way to do that is to threaten them with a "time out". Me? I'd like to see the TOD do well. It won't when players start getting recycled through training for dying too much.

No one is threatened. Anyone who flies there has to live with the rules. It doesnt matter if I die every sortie or you do. The result is the same. You bring up "what if I suck, then those that are better then me advance and I go back to training", well so what dont suck. "Skillz" can be over come by flying with a squad and as a unit. There are trainers that can help you. And if it is still too "hard" then theres the main.

[Kweassa]

I agree with Wotan and Midnight.

 The consequences of being undertrained or low skilled, people met with their lives in the real thing. The fact that whatever happens you'll still live in this little virtual arena, is already a win-win scenario for many.

 Whatever you wish to get out of AH2, the ultimate point is a realistic and immersive environment. People have asked for such things in AH MA, and it was denied to the basis that the MA is not WWII. Well, in AH2 ToD, it is clear that the HTC staff has in mind to recreate the historic clash in every way currently possible withing technological limits and surroundings.

 Fear of death is the largest factor that determines the actions of people in combat.. with the sense of duty following close behind. It is the balance of those two factors that are absolutely important in recreating militaristic environments and battles. Without some sort of incentive for the desire to live, and also an adequate purpose behind the duty, it will be either another MA with only a historic twist, or a alt-monkeying 'extension' contest where you will see nobody fighting each other.

 Everybody will have to go through trainings and basics before they get a chance to prove themselves. If they are not adequately prepared for many challenges ahead, they will be sent back to practice more. There is nothing wrong, or not logical about this. Heck, even the MA works this way - you aren't skilled enough then you be the first to get shot down. The only differences is the AH2 ToD enforces this on a systematical scale, and the MA is without any sort of structure, organization that limits or effects player decisions. No doubt because the ToD has a purpose in recreating organized clashes, and the MA is a free-to-do-whatever-one-desires.

 Midnight hits it spot-on. The flight sim genre is already a game genre where the amount of skill and practice heavily influences the opportunity of people having fun. Competitions are always hard. Some people will suck, some people may never have the opportunity of enjoying a great sports game like golf or baseball or basketball.. but nobody whines about how it is. AH2 ToD does not have the duty to make sure everybody is treated equally, and gets an opportunity to enjoy themselves.

 It is a simulated contest, and if one does not have the skill to do it right, then so be it. They always have the MA or various other environments which they can enjoy. It may sound like an elitist bullshi* but that's how competition works in life.

 If the MA is a 'free-court' with some multiple goal posts where everybody can enjoy themselves in shooting, or mini-games, the AH2 ToD is an organized event where two contestants will meet with all the rules of the game intact. If someone cannot handle that level of competition, he'll have to train harder, or give it up.

 That's how things always work.

[Arlo]

Nope, Woe-tan. I pitched a 24/7 mission oriented battlefield supported by AI back in `98. It's right up my alley.

What's not up my alley is taking things too far. You harp that the part of the proposal that entails players being forced to have to go back through training because they died an arbitrary number of times in a row is pure genius. But you've also claimed that survival will be easy enough for anyone that gave it any effort whatsoever. You can't have it both ways. If it's that easy, grievers will just store up points from time to time. If it's actually going to be hard, you're going to be punishing players just for dying. Is it a moot point or an excessive measure?

I wonder if you get the basic concept of player vs. player combat sims/games? There's a spectrum that runs the gambit in regards to "success" and "failure" (by your standards - which is survival). At one end are the players who measure success purely on their K/D. At the other there's the player who measure's success based on what he manages to accomplish for his side without regard for personal achievement. You don't appreciate the player who contributes through personal sacrifice. Nor do you appear to realize that the players who die repeatedly yet don't mind taking it on the chin and cheerfully participate and contribute to the game are more of an asset to it than the ones who are only concerned with their personal stats and nothing else.

Truly I pity you.

HT will see he made a mistake listening to the squeeky wheels too much and deal with this potential problem. I have faith. Actually, I hope HT or someone else in the company is monitoring this little exchange and sees the suggestion I'm going to make right now:

IF you've decided to incorprorate the retread punitive measure into the game, at least make it an optional setting ( not unlike arena settings) and leave it off until it becomes obvious that grievers running rampant. I doubt it'll have to be turned on.

Originally posted by Batz
Arlo I think its gonna be great watching you whine through repeated training. For that reason alone I am for it.

Just reading your replies here about something thats not even made yet gives me hope for the future. I cant wait.

Everything you want is in the main now.

 

I think it sounds fun as originally described by HT. You are just upset because folks arent agreeing with your idea of "fun". You can have your style of fun now in the main.

 

Hop up and down? All I am doing is disagreeing with you. When did I say "shut up". I just pointed out everything you seem to want is already there in the main. "Obvious flaw"? No what I see is HT addressing a "key concept" by including a "death penalty" on the bottom feeders. This is needed to deal with the very thing mwhun brought up and what Charon has described for you. If thats not for you then theres the main.

 

No one is threatened. Anyone who flies there has to live with the rules. It doesnt matter if I die every sortie or you do. The result is the same. You bring up "what if I suck, then those that are better then me advance and I go back to training", well so what dont suck. "Skillz" can be over come by flying with a squad and as a unit. There are trainers that can help you. And if it is still too "hard" then theres the main.

[Batz]

At the other there's the player who measure's success based on what he manages to accomplish for his side without regard for personal achievement. You don't appreciate the player who contributes through personal sacrifice.

I fly this game for a2a combat. If you want to blow yourself up getting that last pesky hanger so you can "capture" that base then good for you. You can do that in the main. HT has said there will be no base capture, no war winning so what do you think will go on in AH2:ToD? People trying to survive and complete their mission. Thats it bud. Everything else you want is in the main. We dont need multiple arenas with the same gameplay. We dont need a "main" with missions. We already have one.

Again I care how long you have "hoped" for a main arena with massions. Its already there for you. Go make you a mission get a bunch of your buddies together and knock yourselfves out.

You don't appreciate the player who contributes through personal sacrifice. Nor do you appear to realize that the players who die repeatedly yet don't mind taking it on the chin and cheerfully participate and contribute to the game are more of an asset to it than the ones who are only concerned with their personal stats and nothing else.

Anyone who keeps committing virtual suicide is of no use to me. But if thats how you choose to play go for it, the main is there for you. There is no "sacrifice" if death means nothing.

Also again you have not flown with me or my squad so you no idea what we do. I am not the one demanding anything, you are. HT doesnt listen to me. I like to think thats hes "listened" to all the folks who have an interest in the type of arena AH2:ToD seems likely to be. Dont blame me because folks dont share your ideas.

Everything you claim to want is there in the main.

Kweassa is right. If its not for you then the main ia still there.

Everybody will have to go through trainings and basics before they get a chance to prove themselves. If they are not adequately prepared for many challenges ahead, they will be sent back to practice more. There is nothing wrong, or not logical about this. Heck, even the MA works this way - you aren't skilled enough then you be the first to get shot down. The only differences is the AH2 ToD enforces this on a systematical scale, and the MA is without any sort of structure, organization that limits or effects player decisions. No doubt because the ToD has a purpose in recreating organized clashes, and the MA is a free-to-do-whatever-one-desires.

Midnight hits it spot-on. The flight sim genre is already a game genre where the amount of skill and practice heavily influences the opportunity of people having fun. Competitions are always hard. Some people will suck, some people may never have the opportunity of enjoying a great sports game like golf or baseball or basketball.. but nobody whines about how it is. AH2 ToD does not have the duty to make sure everybody is treated equally, and gets an opportunity to enjoy themselves.

It is a simulated contest, and if one does not have the skill to do it right, then so be it. They always have the MA or various other environments which they can enjoy. It may sound like an elitist bullshi* but that's how competition works in life.

If the MA is a 'free-court' with some multiple goal posts where everybody can enjoy themselves in shooting, or mini-games, the AH2 ToD is an organized event where two contestants will meet with all the rules of the game intact. If someone cannot handle that level of competition, he'll have to train harder, or give it up.

That's how things always work.

fyi

I said surviving will be easy, not completing the missions. To advance you need to complete the mission. I have no way of knowing how tough the missions will be or what the requirements will be to complete one. But anyone can pick their engagements and decide for themselves how balance the "risks".

HT has stated:

Gentlemen realize there will be a lot of AI bombers & Vehicles controled by the host only. They will be what lead an attack type mission.

This realy is a must for the game because it is what provides targets so that one persone dosn't have to die for every kill.

The success of the attack mission can then be how well you defended the bombers, and not how many planes you shot down. I.E. Just chacing off the defender is a success.

As a defender your mission will be successful based on how well you stoped the attack. Think of if it in terms of 20% of the bomber force destroyed, the defender mission was a success.

Notice you didn't have to kill any real player on either offense or defense to succede.

With out this one concept in the game there is no way to put a hi penalty on dieing, and hence a desire to live. By simply adjusting the points per mission / points lost for death we can control this incentive to live. The back to training is needed for a 2nd LT death, btw a 1st LT 0 points would just return you to a 2nd LT, because with out it there would not be a real penalty for a 2nd LT death.

This is just a basic outline,im sure details will change on how you recieve mission points, like a bonus for killing a buff or fighter or high ranking player.

Also keep in mind this realy is a new game, and will be completly different than the MA, i.e. base capture,strat like the main,war win & reset,vulching, will not be there.


HiTech

I dont know why you are argueing with me, I am not the only that doesnt agree with you.

[Arlo]

Does this suggestion threaten you in any way?

"Make it an optional setting ( not unlike arena settings) and leave it off until it becomes obvious that grievers are running rampant. I doubt it'll have to be turned on."

Just thought I'd ask your opinion on this one lil concession, Wotan.

[Pyro]

Like most arguments on the boards, things tend to polarize to the extremes when the middle is where the real answers almost always lie.  There is such a thing as degree.  I.E. if you had to retrain after every death, I agree that that would be excessive make the game very difficult for a new player to get into.  That is not the goal.  But just because something can be excessive doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist in any degree.  Would 10 straight deaths be excessive?  What about 100, 1000, 1 million?  At some point you have to say no, and the acknowledgment of that is counter to saying that such a system shouldn't exist.  In the end, we have to try a find the happiest median that we can, because this is a team game and your actions will benefit or detract from the success of your teammates.  At some point, you're going to separate those who just aren't as skilled from those who are playing the game for something else.  That's not to say there won't ever be any collateral damage, so to speak, but nothing is ever 100%.

[Arlo]

But here's the "rub" (so to speak), Mr. Balmos.

Not everyone who dies regularly is "playing for something else". There are those who naturally assume they do because they don't suffer "excessive" streaks where they fail to rtb (whether it be through avoiding risk, luck or their actually being the very bestest sim pile-it in the world). That doesn't make it so by any stretch.

To say that TOD requires forcing players to go back through training due to reaching an arbitrary number of deaths or grievers will populate the game and make everyone else miserable is pure assumption. One that has yet to actually prove itself out.

The same players that voice the loudest support of such a system also freely admit that TOD will not have the same game elements that encouraged pork-n-auger or endless fight til you crash or die furballs ... yet they seem to fear that TOD will somehow miraculously become that without such an extreme measure to keep such in check. I see two mantras chanted: "The MA is for you" and "HT said it and I support it". *ShruG*

So what's really the point in incorporating such? None, from what I can see. After all ... a dedicated griever doesn't care how he disrupts the game ... be it via disruptive tactics, buffer harrassment or hacking. We can try to "second guess" ahead of time all we want ... but since TOD is going to operate not only with a different set of goals but apparently with a different set of game mechanics ... such is futile at best.

Choose any arbitrary number you want to use and set up the retread mill .... but I still say it needs to be an optional setting that can be turned off (and started in the off position). I truly think if it ever comes down to using it, that will be a mistake that will hurt the game in the long run. I wouldn't voice worry over it at all if I didn't feel that.

Thanks for your input, Pyro.

[Batz]

optional? whos gonna volunteer to retrain.........being sent retraining is a "penalty" for too many deaths. Whether its 5 10 15 20 or whatever there needs to be a penalty for death even at the bottom. Just like mwhun asked.

You are obviously worried about spending alot of time retraining. If it bothers ya theres always the main. I dont support it because ht said, I support it because its a wonderful idea.

[Arlo]

Wotan drivels
... being sent retraining is a "penalty" for too many deaths.

[/b]

Wotan, ya dufe. As much as you despirately want to be the TOD trainer and mold every player in your image ... my suggestion bears merit. If all you want to do is continue to punish new players past the point of reason (you apparently don't give a flying flip about grievers now - go figure) then maybe you need to see a shrink about your "power fixation".

[Batz]

my broken record just follows yours....

You asked

Just thought I'd ask your opinion on this one lil concession, Wotan

and I replied....

[Arlo]

And I'm right damned glad you did, ya dufe. The more I can keep you at it, the less time you'll have to plan taking over the world with your sidekick Pinky.

[Charon]

To say that TOD requires forcing players to go back through training due to reaching an arbitrary number of deaths or grievers will populate the game and make everyone else miserable is pure assumption. One that has yet to actually prove itself out.

I don't know Arlo, I'm not a "strat" guy but you sure hear a lot of wailing about people who are not following mission orders on both channel 1 (and now vox) and the bbs. And there is the otherwise dweeby behavior and gaming the game actions that take away from historical immersion. If you want to have it as an option, fine, but I have to disagree on how long it will be before it is turned on. There is just too much evidence to the contrary. Examples (daily? universal?):

-- I upped a goon like they asked, but then they were off vulching instead of protecting me and I got shot down.

-- the field is down! Why did you pork the fuel?

-- Kamikaze heavy buffs

-- They joined the mission, but then went off and..."

-- the two guys pumping rounds into the flaming wreck

-- the conga line wiped out by killshooter

-- or, LOL, what about the "spies?"

Most of these behaviors don't promote the mission objectives, and many may get the pilot a kill but usually an easy death in the process.

Or for pure griefiers, just look at the training arena or some of the H2H discussions. With stuff like the text buffer griefer, you can get someone banned. But what about the guy who just goes down and leaves his escort to jabo a field and die quickly in ack? How do you punish that behavior? Talk about gray areas.

I would hope that accomplishing the mission would be the no. 1 priority. However, survival should be a close no. 2. Self-sacrifice was common in WW2, but usually not intentional in a MA kinda way: "I'll give my life fighting this furball against 10 to 1, so that we can hopefully achieve that war-winning 1-1 kill ratio. In fact, self-sacrifice of that nature was usually rare enough to be rewarded with a CMH or other relatively high decoration.

The guy who chased the  FW190 from 25,000 feet to the deck wasn't always regarded as a hero for his dedication, since another 190 or two didn't have to deal with him on the way to the bombers. Particularly if his valuable training and aircraft were lost with little return. The 8th AF only turned back from one maximum effort mission because of opposition (very early on), but numerous fighter sweeps and patrols by pilots in all countries saw discretion as the better part of valor when the odds sucked.

Since beta is at least two weeks away , why worry too much about it now? I assume thought will go into the point structure to balance aggression and survival issues, and limit excessive training sessions for those who try. If not, then I imagine the arena will fail. I can assume HTC knows this too. Again, though, if you have something better please let us know. I don’t much like the training idea except as a regrettable necessity.

Charon