What happens if you die?

[J_A_B]

I agree with Arlo and Karnak.  

Dying can't be too painful, or else it'll wind up as another barely-used arena, and a huge waste of HTC's resources.   That'd be a shame.

I also subit that if there is going to be a "death penalty", then there should also be a "cowardice penality"--if you run too much, you get demoted.  

J_A_B

[Regurge]

Originally posted by Arlo
Who says taking risks involves suicidal tendencies?

Well, you're the one saying that taking any risks automatically leads to dying alot. I think you can take risks and still live most of the time. Its even possible to have fun fights where hardly anyone get shot down.


And not advancing is penalty enough, ain't it? No? How about just getting busted to the point of being a butterbar with no points but not having to go through the bloody training process all over again? No? Not enough sting? Masochism, anyone?

Not everyone will care about points and rank and dying, and it will be evident in the way they fly. Might as well follow the bombs in on a jabo run instead of a boring rtb. Why stay and escort buffs when its more fun to chase that con down through his ack.

I agree it can't be an extreme penalty or noone will fly. Everyone has their own idea of what is extreme tho. I just want enough penalty to make people at least try to live most of the time.

Karnak, HT said he will adjust the success points/death penalty ratio to control incentive. I'm sure high risk missions (whether due to plane or profile) will get lots more points for success. I'd bet a well flown mossie could get points faster than a P51, just like the perk point situation.

Now I'm thinking there should be some missions with no death penalty and worth no points. I'll call them 'fun' as opposed to 'serious' death penalty missions. The AI can run opposing missions such that fun missions encouter only other fun missions and likewise for serious. That way everyone is happy and in the same arena.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Regurge

Well, you're the one saying that taking any risks automatically leads to dying alot. I think you can take risks and still live most of the time. Its even possible to have fun fights where hardly anyone get shot down.

No ..... I'm the one sayin' that players who routinely take more risks are more likely to die more often. There is a slight difference there. And some pilots are either skilled enough or lucky enough to get away with it ... but that doesn't make a five death streak impossible for them, either. Nor does it mean they don't care whether they live or die in the game. But some just enjoy bucking the odds.

 Some players don't find hi-alt cruising and cherry-picking real sport (meaning too meek or boring - although I suppose it can be said that the meek will inherit TOD ). And that doesn't mean they despise missions or landing their kills. Sure you can take risks and live. Sure you can take risks and die. And there are times you're just plain unlucky no matter what ya do - risky or cautious. Or maybe you just keep running up against someone who has ya outclassed no matter what ya do. It happens. Can't pretend it don't.

 I don't dispute the fact that players can play more aggresively and live through it. But they have less chance of it than players who don't.

Realistically speaking, pilots didn't always get to choose their operating alt, patrol sectors or even planes and weapon/fuel loadout. Sometimes pilots were tasked to do the impossible. Those who succeeded in spite of the odds were hailed as heros. But often so were those who didn't.

If this was part of TOD mission parameters ( to have an occasional mission thrown at you and your unit that is just plain suicide) ... I somehow picture a different tune getting sung by the advocates for retraining.
 

Originally posted by Regurge

Not everyone will care about points and rank and dying, and it will be evident in the way they fly. Might as well follow the bombs in on a jabo run instead of a boring rtb. Why stay and escort buffs when its more fun to chase that con down through his ack.

Sometimes it may not be evident at all. I could care less about achieving high rank in any version of AH ... but I'm always mission oriented. I get more out of rtbing than dying. But I also get more out of trying to fulfill a part of a mission that means more than padding my score and getting rank. I often volunteer for hard assignments just because, quite frankly, I can use the practice. Even in the middle of heading to one target or sector to handle my own thing, I often get requests to scort or take out aa or even draw enemy away from something. I cheerfully dump ord or alt or go into a situation I'm not entirely comfortable with to help out.

Originally posted by Regurge
I agree it can't be an extreme penalty or noone will fly. Everyone has their own idea of what is extreme tho. I just want enough penalty to make people at least try to live most of the time.
 

Which is all I've been saying from the get-go. Strip my rank, give me the worst maintained plane in the squadron, make sure I never get a medal ... just because I manage to be the squadron statistic on a regular basis (no matter how hard I try not to be, given my penchant for volunteering for the hard stuff). Give the cautious, "smart and safe" player all the rank, medals and perks. Just don't throw in having the players who won't turn down any mission no matter how hard it is threatened with "time outs" because they find that part of TOD more attractive.

[Batz]

Karnak I am sure you fly well, but it still doesnt change the fact that you have complained about how hard it is to fly a mossie.

I fly a 109g6, hardly a speed demon but I do so because I like the plane and its fun. I assume thats why you fly the mossie. However, you do take a "me and my poor mossie" tone occassionally. This might cause some to ask "Then why fly it".


I do think that survival in the AH2:ToD will be "easier" then in the main. Especially if you fly "smart". With the "fear of death" universal you most likely will do well.

I agree its a bit premature to get uptight about what the future holds. But whatever it is we will all get a real choice as to what arena and what style we want to fly.

Also I think AH2:ToD will help push the planest along as the current wholes get more attention.

[Batz]

I wonder what HT really envisions training to be like for TOD?

Maybe you should ask him before you get all uptight. As for how I fly you have no clue. So whos being

presumptuous

Sometimes it may not be evident at all. I could care less about achieving high rank in any version of AH ... but I'm always mission oriented. I get more out of rtbing than dying. But I also get more out of trying to fulfill a part of a mission that means more than padding my score and getting rank. I often volunteer for hard assignments just because, quite frankly, I can use the practice. Even in the middle of heading to one target or sector to handle my own thing, I often get requests to scort or take out aa or even draw enemy away from something. I cheerfully dump ord or alt or go into a situation I'm not entirely comfortable with to help out.

Your whole quote above is exactly what you can get in the main. The missions in AH2:ToD are meaningless. There is nothing to "win".

But I also get more out of trying to fulfill a part of a mission that means more than padding my score and getting rank.

Well the only reason to "stay alive" and complete the "mission" in AH2:ToD is to advance. Thats the "trigger" like "base capture" is in the main. It gives you something to fight for, something to fight over. To differentiate AH2:ToD and AH2:C the "fear of death" will be made apart of gameplay.

There will be no "taking one for the team" or riding your bombs in to get that pesky fp thats holding up your field capture.

Also I stated I think that flying "smart" will be more important then individual "skillz" but you also gotta know your limitations. If you "suck", well then you "suck". We shouldnt be forced to hold a guys hand so he feels good about himself. The main arena would be a better place to learn acm "skillz".

[Arlo]

Well ... just make sure your "schwarm" stays higher than any enemy you can see, Wotan and you stay prepared to bug out at all times.

btw ... the "point" of AHII:TOD is supposed to be a greater sense of immersion ... not to focus on just points and advancement and being too scared to take risks. I've heard this from HT himself in the Bigweek ng.

[Batz]

I quoted what ht has said on this board.......

I dont care anything about "bigweek". "Immersion" is relative and means different things to different folks. "Immersion" to me means fear of death. To others its a furball with missions.

Do you know how to fly a 109? Its not a bz plane. Have you flown a g6? There isnt much running you can do. The plane doesnt hit 400mph in level flight at any alt.

As for running just checking your scores for plane type over the past few tours you fly some of fastest in AH. F4u-1, yak9u, typh etc. Now I dont care what people fly or how they have fun. More power to you. But you keep casting dispersions on things you havent a clue about.

HT has given a reason as to why someone would need to return to training in his response to mwhuns question.

posted by mwhun:

I still seem to be missing a key concept about this design. What is going to prevent the same folks that love to “pork and auger” from doing this in a detrimental way in the mission theater? Other than busting them down and keeping them at 2nd Lt. for their entire virtual lives –what other penalties will they face. I.E. What does having a higher rank get me that a 2nd Lt. would not have access too?

Hope that makes sense…

MWHUN: The hours of becoming a cadet and going threw training again, hence why you must go back to training. Btw training = not in a mission, and no one to kill.

HiTech

Theres nothing to stop a folks who are "content to spend their time at the bottom" from bring main type suicide missions into AH2:ToD. There need to be a way to discourage folks who

love to “pork and auger” from doing this in a detrimental way in the mission theater?

I agree with him and think the "return to training" is enough incentive to instill the "fear of death" factor. As matter a fact mwhun labeled this a "key concept" of the design.

This is the answer to your "why".

[Karnak]

Batz,

I agree that fear of death must be there, but so must a real desire to give your all for your country.

The British and the Germans weren't exactly popsicle-footing around eachother for fear of getting hurt in the summer of 1940.  Why?  Because they were fighting for something bigger than themselves, be it good or bad.

In a computer game it is easy to create a simulated fear of death by putting in harsh death penalties.  However, I have yet to see a computer game with the solution to creating the will fight even though the potential penalty is so steep.

If it works like this:

Successful Mission: +10 points
Unsuccessful Mission: +0 points
Death/Capture: -100 points

People will opt to run at the slightest sign that the mission is actually dangerous from their position.  Why take a 100 point loss when you can take a 0 point gain/loss and hope for a better situation in the next mission?  Why fight when there is danger?

If you're in a P-51D, screw the bombers and head for home.

If you're in a Bf109, let the cities / factories take it and head away from the bomber stream.

If you're in a Mossie, dump bombs and turn for home on full WEP at the first sighting of higher dots, somebody else will get the Gestapo HQ I'm sure.


If the scoring is done as has been described thus far all of those behaviors will be the standard operating procedures in the ToD.



What HTC needs to do (or a player make a great suggestion) is come up with something that will motivate the players to actually care about the success or failure of their cause.  Care enough to engage and risk simulated death.

Any ideas?

[Batz]

first those numbers were used as an example.

DMF brought up the very samething you did in another post, one of my replies was

oh ok gotcha yeah that most definately would happen. I can almost name names  

How would you penalize death?

Obviously the best way would make the penalty for mission failure such that it encourages you to fight. But unless that penalty is equal to a death then you will have those guys playing the percentages.

Can you imagine you are in a b17 with 51 escorts and run into a higher and larger number of enemy. From your tail gun position you see the 51s flying in oppossite direction.......lol

Dunno know what ht has planned.........

HT touches on it in this thread as well

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76429

This is different then "no penalty". which is what arlo wants.

[Arlo]

Fear is obviously your motivator. Don't be afraid, Wotan. I'm not advocating HT penalize you for "flying smart". Hell ... quite honestly ... I can't understand why you're so afraid that TOD will be populated with nothing but pork and auger dweebs when you seem to be aware that the overall theme and setup will discourage "risk" style base captures and arena resets at all costs. It doesn't need the additional factor of giving players "time outs" for playing in a way that pisses you off. Damn, Wotan .. even if some silly sods did take to doing it in TOD for some odd reason (which I doubt would happen), it won't actually accomplish anything other than making your shiny german colonel's outfit and chest fulla medals seem all that more special since there's a few more peasants to look down on.

Take a valium and repeat after me ....

Punishing players for dying too much by making them have to go back through training is overkill. It's not going to help TOD. It's going to hurt it.

[Arlo]

Ahhh ... when you assume you make an bellybutton of you  .... not me. I said that busting someone back to butterbar is enough penalty. Supposedly butterbars aren't gonna be able to do as much as higher ranking players. You'd rather have HT treat anyone who honestly has a streak of bad luck as a dedicated disruptor. I don't think that's his real intent and he will adjust things accordingly. I just hope you get over it when it happens.

Oh ... one more thing .... a lil something for you to consider ....

If surviving is going to be as easy as you think it will (for anyone and everyone that gives the slightest effort to such) then the penalty you so adamantly support isn't going to amount to squat. All a pork and auger dweeb will have to do is make sure he stocks up a few points ... then he can go on a few runs doing whatever he wants, however he wants .... as long as he doesn't bottom out. Store up a few more with some milkruns and do it again.

Uh-oh .... stop hyperventilating, Wotan. here's a paper bag for ya.

Originally posted by Batz

This is different then "no penalty". which is what arlo wants.

[Karnak]

Yes, I know those numbers were only an example.  I pointed that same thing out to a fanboi on AGW.  I used them simply because HiTech had already provided them as a "how this might work" example.

I read through that thread and didn't see HiTech address that.  I saw DMF make a suggestion, but HiTech seemed to have shot it down.  Maybe he already has a workable idea.  We'll see.

The problem with an equally large penalty for failing a mission is that it becomes a "zero sum game".  In order for the Allied pilots to get their success points, all of the Axis players must get failure points.  If this goes on for too long (Think NFC vs. AFC through the '80s and '90s) you end up with all the Axis players having to go through training while the Allied players are all Colonels.  For ToD to work it must not be a zero sum game.  HiTech addressed that in the thread you linked to:

Originally posted by HiTech:
Gentlemen realize there will be a lot of AI bombers & Vehicles controled by the host only. They will be what lead an attack type mission.

This realy is a must for the game because it is what provides targets so that one persone dosn't have to die for every kill.

~s~

With out this one concept in the game there is no way to put a hi penalty on dieing, and hence a desire to live. By simply adjusting the points per mission / points lost for death we can control this incentive to live. The back to training is needed for a 2nd LT death, btw a 1st LT 0 points would just return you to a 2nd LT, because with out it there would not be a real penalty for a 2nd LT death.

I look forward to the ToD arena in any case.



(FYI Batz, I am very pleased with the AH Mosquito, other than the fact that it consumes fuel at twice the correct rate.  I am not pleased to be using it in an environment where it is facing things that it rarely, or never did.  Things like the Fw190D-9 (only 700 built) or the La-7 (Allied), P-51D (Allied) and Typhoon (Allied).  I enjoy flying it even so, but would love to give it a long workout in a 1943 environment divided into an Allies / Axis setup.  I hope that the ToD arena allows this)

[Batz]

if you just ride the bottom then there is no penalty for dying while at the bottom is there?

HT is designing gameplay for AH2:ToD not me. He stated his "reasons".

Again you have never flown with me so you dont have a clue.

Punishing players for dying too much by making them have to go back through training is overkill. It's not going to help TOD. It's going to hurt it.

Hurt it, for you. It wont bother me a bit.

The main will be there for you.

Edit....

I agree Karnak. mid war on any front is more fun to me then late war. Maybe the server missions will take plane numbers into account so that d9s g10s la7s p51ds are rare. I dont like the idea of only better ranking people having access to the better planes. If folks think that they will get stuck fighting experts in better planes they wont be inclined to fly there often. So late war planes like the d9 would be in 1 out of 5 missions (example) but be 1st come 1 st serve. This way everyone has the chance to fly one but so they arent "everywhere".

[Arlo]

It's not all about "you", Wotan. Something you obviously have problems understanding. I want TOD to succeed. You just want it to conform to your "reality".

So will TOD. I'll be the guy who's motivation isn't "fear".

Originally posted by Batz


Hurt it, for you. It wont bother me a bit.

The main will be there for you.

[Batz]

Have you gone insane? you direct a point at me, then claim it aint about me........

I am not designing anything, I am not demanding ht do anything. You are. I just posted my support for what ht has said so far.

You are the one with problem, you are the one "afraid" to go back to training. Not me.

I am not telling you to fly my way, you are telling me. You can fly how you want in the main, you can set your "who cares if I die missions" up in the main. You have everything you want already.

Now you want to piss and moan that you may not ever get out of training. Well I dont care if you do.

You get the same "punishment" as everyone else. If you die a lot then you get demoted. Thats why AH2:ToD has been referred to as an rpg. Its not about "cool" missions. Its about creating a different style of gameplay thats more in touch with "reality" then the main. If its not for you have a choice. To advance you need to complete the mission. But the mission is not the "end all".