Author Topic: Thankfully Saddam is fully cooperating and no longer changinig terms of agreements!  (Read 1405 times)

Offline midnight Target

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Originally posted by Udie
2 Words for the stupid oil argument.   Texas and Alaska......  That doesn't even count the gulf of Mexico.


it ain't about oil.....


Sure it is.

If Saddam were nowhere near oil, we wouldn't care about him.

as much.. :)

Offline Saurdaukar

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Originally posted by midnight Target
Sure it is.

If Saddam were nowhere near oil, we wouldn't care about him.

as much.. :)


No we wouldnt (as much).  But what sane person would want a man who set fire to oil fields 10 years ago in control of them?

Offline Charon

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I think the Oil argument is idiotic. If we just wanted access to their Oil nobody would be happier than Saddam Hussein to sell it to us provided that we drop the sanctions and allow him to sell the stuff.

2 Words for the stupid oil argument. Texas and Alaska...... That doesn't even count the gulf of Mexico. it ain't about oil.....



Why is it people are so willing to see the "oil influence" in France's motivations, yet overlook the numerous and rather glaring advantages to the world energy market (some markets more than others, actually) by this move? These include:

1. Adds security against potential Saudi fundamentalist disruptions. Who are the big supporters of Islamic terrorism again? Potential for another Shaw/Homeni/Iran kinda thing?

2. Limits the potential of Iraqi disruption of other oil supplies in the region (actually noted, but downplayed by Bush actually in his address) If WMD are an issue this is where the threat lies, IMO.

3. Add, hopefully (flip of a coin?), greater stability to the region for the world's petroleum infrastructure. It also clears up a military monitoring expense and any number of irritations dealing with Iraq in the region.

As ancillary benefits (don't believe they are sufficient in their own rights for the political fallout, but they are hard to ignore):

1. Opens a new, major market for the US/British "Multinational" oil companies and infrastructure support companies.

2. Provides access to low-sulfur crude which makes producing the low-sulfur gasolines and diesels mandated by recent environmental rules more efficient and less costly to implement. When you push technology for a 97 percent reduction in distillate sulfur, having low sulfur crude saves a lot of money in new cracking towers or lost efficiency by having to process the crude 2-3 times in an existing refinery. You do the math.

It takes an extremely willful effort to accept the less honorable motivations of the "others" yet totally dismiss potential US and British motivations where Iraqi oil is concerned. I mean, it's not like we let "morality" get in the way when dealing with countries like PRC, which represent significant business opportunities. Why should morality have an overwhelming role here? It's not like we haven't overthrown leaders in the fairly recent past for our own cold war interests.

But of course, the whole WMD/OIL connection is all liberal ignorance shining though, right? Well, such noted liberals as Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, among others, seem to agree with the OIL connection. In fact they outlined Husseins WMD threat -- to oil mainly --  as early as 1997 when pushing for a preemptive regime change. No terrorist linkage then, nor real concern about a direct threat to the good old US of A.

In 1997 a group of prominent Republicans and neo-conservatives (including Cheney, Jeb Bush and a number of individuals who are now Bush foreign policy staffers) organized the Project for the New American Century. Among the “urgent” needs they identified was a regime change in Iraq, due to Hussein's WMD programs and their potential threat to the regions oil supply, our ally Israel, and other moderate states. Heres' a quote with the remainder posted below. The good news is that you can at least blame it on Clinton!

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The lengthy period during which the inspectors will have been unable to enter many Iraqi facilities has made it even less likely that they will be able to uncover all of Saddam’s secrets.  As a result, in the not-too-distant future we will be unable to determine with any reasonable level of confidence whether Iraq does or does not possess such weapons.

Such uncertainty will, by itself, have a seriously destabilizing effect on the entire Middle East.  It hardly needs to be added that if Saddam does acquire the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction, as he is almost certain to do if we continue along the present course, the safety of American troops in the region, of our friends and allies like Israel and the moderate Arab states, and a significant portion of the world’s supply of oil will all be put at hazard.  As you have rightly declared, Mr. President, the security of the world in the first part of the 21st century will be determined largely by how we handle this threat.

Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy.


Here’s the full letter

Cont.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2003, 01:41:16 PM by Charon »

Offline Charon

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January 26, 1998
The Honorable William J. Clinton
President of the United States
Washington, DC
Dear Mr. President:

We are writing you because we are convinced that current American policy toward Iraq is not succeeding, and that we may soon face a threat in the Middle East more serious than any we have known since the end of the Cold War. In your upcoming State of the Union Address, you have an opportunity to chart a clear and determined course for meeting this threat. We urge you to seize that opportunity, and to enunciate a new strategy that would secure the interests of the U.S. and our friends and allies around the world. That strategy should aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime from power. We stand ready to offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor.

The policy of “containment” of Saddam Hussein has been steadily eroding over the past several months. As recent events have demonstrated, we can no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War coalition to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections. Our ability to ensure that Saddam Hussein is not producing weapons of mass destruction, therefore, has substantially diminished. Even if full inspections were eventually to resume, which now seems highly unlikely, experience has shown that it is difficult if not impossible to monitor Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons production. The lengthy period during which the inspectors will have been unable to enter many Iraqi facilities has made it even less likely that they will be able to uncover all of Saddam’s secrets. As a result, in the not-too-distant future we will be unable to determine with any reasonable level of confidence whether Iraq does or does not possess such weapons.

Such uncertainty will, by itself, have a seriously destabilizing effect on the entire Middle East. It hardly needs to be added that if Saddam does acquire the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction, as he is almost certain to do if we continue along the present course, the safety of American troops in the region, of our friends and allies like Israel and the moderate Arab states, and a significant portion of the world’s supply of oil will all be put at hazard. As you have rightly declared, Mr. President, the security of the world in the first part of the 21st century will be determined largely by how we handle this threat.

Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy.

We urge you to articulate this aim, and to turn your Administration's attention to implementing a strategy for removing Saddam's regime from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political and military efforts. Although we are fully aware of the dangers and difficulties in implementing this policy, we believe the dangers of failing to do so are far greater. We believe the U.S. has the authority under existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf. In any case, American policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council.

We urge you to act decisively. If you act now to end the threat of weapons of mass destruction against the U.S. or its allies, you will be acting in the most fundamental national security interests of the country. If we accept a course of weakness and drift, we put our interests and our future at risk.
Sincerely,

Elliott Abrams; Richard L. Armitage; William J. Bennett; Jeffrey Bergner; John Bolton; Paula Dobriansky; Francis Fukuyama; Robert Kagan; Zalmay Khalilzad; William Kristol; Richard Perle; Peter W. Rodman; Donald Rumsfeld; William Schneider, Jr.; Vin Weber; Paul Wolfowitz; R. James Woolsey; Robert B. Zoellick


(A few familiar names like Rumsfeld and Kristol, but many unfamiliar names are now holding staffer positions, such as Bolton - Colin Powell’s staff; Wolfowitz - Rumsfeld’s staff; Perle - chairman of the Defense Policy Board; Armitage - Powell’s staff; Khalilzad - UNOCOL consultant/new Bush Admin. Afghanistan envoy)

If you think that oil isn’t at the heart of this action, I bet even Donald Rumsfeld would call you an idiot, but not in front of the press, of course.

I still believe that we would be more than happy to practice containment, as we do with North Korea, if there wasn't that huge reserve of crude sitting under Iraq. We technically have the justification to do what we are going to do. The Iraqi people may think of this as a great liberation. But what leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that this new morality is being applied selectively based on other, less nobel reasons. What also bothers me on a personal level, is that I can almost justify it based on the significance of petroleum in the developed world, and in my personal standard of living.


Charon

Offline Slash27

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boo hoo we want his oil yadda yadda yadda. What about all that Anthrax he has in his basement?

 Do you think France is mad because we might tear up that nice little nuclear reactor they sold Sadam?


Quote: "You mean apart from bombing Kurdish villages, like they have been for the last couple of years?"  

    Has Turkey bombed the Kurds?

Offline straffo

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Originally posted by Slash27
Has Turkey bombed the Kurds?


Ignorant or what ?

Offline Charon

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D-Day: War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the going gets tough . . . the tough get going. Who's with me? Let's Go! Come on! AAAAEEEEEGGGHHHH!!


Charon

http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=184&sound=41
« Last Edit: February 11, 2003, 05:31:16 PM by Charon »

Offline Saurdaukar

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Originally posted by Slash27

    Has Turkey bombed the Kurds?


LOL - everyone bombs the Kurds.  Its a sporting event in the Mid East.  Great folks, eh?  :D

Offline Shuckins

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I'm glad I don't live in a major American city.  I have no doubt that Saddam will gleefully sell or donate some of his weapons of mass destruction to Al Qaeda as soon as he has enough for his own needs.  Or before.

The biological weapons will be used first.  Any moves to retaliate will be countered with the threat of the bomb.  How will our government, and those of our "allies," counter THAT threat when it develops?


Shuckins

Offline babek-

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Originally posted by Shuckins
The biological weapons will be used first.  Any moves to retaliate will be countered with the threat of the bomb.  How will our government, and those of our "allies," counter THAT threat when it develops?
Shuckins


Maybe they should stop delivering such weapons to their frankensteins like Saddam.

It was the USA - as also Germany, France, USSR, Spain, UK, China and so many other countries - which delivered Saddam his chemical weapons or the hardware to produce them when he was defined the good guy in his war against the bad Iran.

When he killed by chemical warfare 125000 iranian soldiers and Iran protested at the UN it was the US government which blocked a resolution against Iraq with the argumentation that Iraq was acting in self defense.

Also when Saddam killed the kurds with gas weapons these "civilized" countries remained silent. because many iraqui kurdish clans wer fighting for Iran.

So instead asking how a government would deal if a monster has the ability to use chemical weapons it should answer the question before why they had delivered exactly this monster these weapons...

Offline Charon

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I'm glad I don't live in a major American city. I have no doubt that Saddam will gleefully sell or donate some of his weapons of mass destruction to Al Qaeda as soon as he has enough for his own needs. Or before.


I imagine Saddam would be trying to use them on Al Qaeda, since he is about as popular to a fundamentalist Islamic arab as GW Bush. In fact, as a traitor to the faith in a country with the 2nd home city of Islam, he might even be less popular in the end.

My belief isn't really a feeling, it just reflects stuff Bin Laden has been saying for about a decade, and that he just reiterated in his latest speech. In fact, the disruption caused by a war in Iraq provides him with quite an opportunity to expand his influence in the country. Again, even Rumsfeld isn't that concerned about WMD on US soil apparently, it's the threat to a major portion of the world's oil supply that he, rightfully perhaps, takes seriously. But Shuckins, if it makes you feel better...

Charon

Offline Shuckins

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That's all very reassuring guys, considering the country is under a heightened alert status.  Saddam Hussein may be a pariah to other Muslims in the Middle East, but he is THEIR pariah.  Fundamentalist terrorists such as Ben Laden will gladly forgive him of his sins if he aids them in their war against the "Great Satan."  Some of the evidence presented by Colin Powell suggests that they have already forgiven him.  Or do you really believe that Colin Powell doesn't know what he's talking about?  

We're all arm-chair theorists.  We tend to accept the facts that we want to believe and discard those that don't jibe with those beliefs.  In this matter, I think we had better trust the experts.  They know a lot more about what's actually happening than any of us.  Doing so is a lot better than being a member of the Neville Chamberlain Fan Club.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Saurdaukar

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WHOO HOO Shuckins!  Stick a fork in it mate!  :D

Offline Charon

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That's all very reassuring guys, considering the country is under a heightened alert status.


It would really be nice to think our priorities had been focused on the immediate threat on the ground, instead of a long-term threat to an admittedly vital national interest abroad. The guy that destroyed the World Trade Center is still alive and well, he's just not the center of attention, which says a lot.

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Saddam Hussein may be a pariah to other Muslims in the Middle East, but he is THEIR pariah. Fundamentalist terrorists such as Ben Laden will gladly forgive him of his sins if he aids them in their war against the "Great Satan."


No, fundamentalist terrorists are working to replace him, likely in the most violent manner they can. A secular, Westernized ruler is a threat to the drudgery of a taliban, and a continual insult to fundamentalist Islam.

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Some of the evidence presented by Colin Powell suggests that they have already forgiven him. Or do you really believe that Colin Powell doesn't know what he's talking about?


He's following the party line, just like you would expect. His job is to not disagree with his boss. BTW, I assume you're referring to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and that Zarqawi supports a "sinister nexus between Iraq and the Al Qaeda terrorist network..." in unsubstantiated claims by Powell related to a poison and explosive training camp in Northern Iraq.

According to the liberal Chicago Tribune, there is a captured terrorist and Zarqawi associate that claims the camp belongs to Ansar al-Islam, a group not connected to Al Qaeda and violently opposed to Hussein and operating in a region outside his control. Ansar al-Islam seeks the establishment of an Islamic regime in Baghdad similar to that in Iran, as well as a similar fate for Jordan. This was leaked by the Germans, so it probably carries as much weight as Powell's claim in the end, no more, no less.  

[edit: If I was in a former profession, I would have left this last line out :)  If you find out this detail on your own, I would claim that his credentials have been good enough to convict other terrorists and that Zarqawi was directly linked to actions against Jordanian targets, which adds support to his claims.]

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We're all arm-chair theorists. We tend to accept the facts that we want to believe and discard those that don't jibe with those beliefs. In this matter, I think we had better trust the experts. They know a lot more about what's actually happening than any of us. Doing so is a lot better than being a member of the Neville Chamberlain Fan Club.


That philosophy really worked for the German people 1933-1939 didn't it? Unfortunately, their trust was misplaced. What about Clinton? The same apply there?

IMO a citizen's obligation is to think for his or her self and realize that not all experts or politicians tell the full truth. Politicians' well-paid and very sharp staffers study the demographics of the target audience and generate messages that strike the most resonance with that audience. It doesn't mean they have to lie, in fact, in PR you never lie, you just concentrate on telling the truths and half truths that support your position while averting the counter truths. No doubt there is a moral thread in the whole process, but read the previous 1998 Project for the New American Century letter for what is likely the major motivation. It just fits too well with everything else.

Charon
« Last Edit: February 11, 2003, 11:15:22 PM by Charon »

Offline Thunder9

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Originally posted by Slash27
Has Turkey bombed the Kurds?


Yup  :-(