Author Topic: Random Euro thoughts on Iraq (Read 2241 times)

StSanta · « **on:** February 13, 2003, 05:14:53 AM »

Was up climbing yesterday. We've put up grips and stuff on the walls of an old German WWII bunker. It hit me that these kind of reminders aren't present in the US - there is very little physical stuff that connects the population with that war.

Here, we have a coupleofroads that were paved with cement-like stuff by the Germans - still hasn't been replaced, seems to last forever. We have bunkers and shelters in many places in the city where I live - some huge, some small. I've even dived one or two; due to sand migration, they're now below the surface of the water. But they're good reminders of Hitler's fortress Europe.

Ever so often, a few shells and grenades are found - I remember finding a 30mm grenade with my brothers as a kid. In the years after the wars, huge stocks of weapons were found - some by kids exploring bunkers.

And those middle aged and older today experienced it firsthand, one way or another. The concrete is a strong reminder of past days.

Those bunkers will probably outlast me.One can say many bad things about the Germans - but they sure know how to build stuff.

Am thinking that Americans, particularly post WWII generations, haven't really got much to remind them of WWII. Sure, some museums with planes and tanks. But that environment isn't really conducive of the atmosphere. German paint 'Achtung ' on a building a few yards away from where you live is.

Perhaps it can help to explain why Europe nowadays is reluctant to go to war. The population has twice gone through the two most devastating wars in human history. It's entrenched in the collective European psyche. The American civilian population at large did not suffer during WWII - things were more scarce, but there weren't armed individuals with totenkopf helmets keeping an eye out for them. There wasn't widespread hunger. Buildings didn't suddenly explode and there wasn't a horde of first Germans and the Russians plundering, raping, murdering.

Many use this as a justification for not going to war against Iraq. I have myself. However.

I am at a loss about France and Germanys position on Iraq and NATO. Sure, we have this past - but should it not serve as a REMINDER? Did we not say 'never again'?

We've seen millions executed in cold blood. We've realized that peace isn't always good, and sometimes, war is necessary for the greater good of the people. Tyrants cannot be talked to; force must be met by force.

We waited too long on dealing with one dictator and felt the consequences most keenly on our bodies. Must we repeat that mistake?

I hope not.

Hortlund · « **Reply #1 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:17:32 AM »

StSanta · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:34:30 AM »

Eloquently put Hortlund.

See, we CAN agree

Svenskjävel

Dowding · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:46:22 AM »

Turkey hasn't asked NATO for assistance, so I don't see why we should need to send help until they ask for it.

Hans Blix makes his latest (and probably final) report on Friday, and there will be a security council vote - wouldn't it make sense to wait until then before passing judgement on French/German intentions? Afterall, it is how they vote that counts, not all this posturing beforehand.

The French have always been tricky customers when it comes to international relations with the US. I don't think this time things are any different, but there will be no veto. No big deal. Germany, for obvious reasons, is staunchly anti-war. Until the Balkan crisis, they hadn't deployed troops outside their border for 50 odd years. It's embedded in the German national character to avoid conflict at all costs - and to be honest I can largely understand that given 20th century history.

Personally, I believe the whole casus belli for this conflict has been confused and changed from either WMD to terrorism so many times, with the US/UK grasping at anything that might support their case that I'm very skeptical about anything they say.

I still don't understand why intelligence about possible weapons sites was not passed onto the inspectors as soon as they went in.

On the other hand, I don't doubt that Saddam has chemical and possibly biological weapons and needs to be confronted. But I also believe that to hold the view that oil has nothing to do with this course of action is patently ridiculous. It may not be the sole reason, but it is a reason. I think the US perhaps views Iraqi oil as an insurance policy against a deterioration in Saudi-US relations or the overthrow of the Saudi government by Islamic extremists.

A post-Saddam Iraq might be a great democratic Western ally if handled right. They have a well educated, technological middle class and are not religiously indoctrinated. I don't believe the 'the only good iraqi is a dead iraqi' crap some people post on this board. But you can lead horse to water, but the horse has to want to drink. Unless a well planned, funded and supported plan is in place in Iraq, we could be creating huge problems for ourselves.

I'd like to see more effort in the middle Eastern peace process. I see the continuing Israeli-Palestinian problems as the biggest recruitment advertisement for Islamic terrorists in the world today. Without an end to it, the militants (on both sides) will always have the popular support they need to continue the blood-bath.

Overall, the 'war on terrorism' cannot be fought with smart bombs, no matter how smart they might be.

Hortlund · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:48:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
It's embedded in the German national character to avoid conflict at all costs

Your eloquence is only surpassed by your knowledge in history Sir.

Dowding · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:51:04 AM »

I'm was talking in the present tense, and you damn well know it. Talk to any modern German and that soon becomes apparent.

Hortlund · « **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:58:58 AM »

Dowding, which one in this conversation has a German dad?

Dowding · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2003, 06:02:16 AM »

Which one of us was having dinner with a couple of Germans only two days ago?

Hortlund · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2003, 06:06:16 AM »

Which one posted a funny picture?

Dowding · « **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2003, 06:09:39 AM »

Which one has a punchline to this joke?

Hortlund · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2003, 06:12:29 AM »

Not me.

Dowding · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2003, 06:22:46 AM »

Me neither. Damn.

CptTrips · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2003, 08:19:56 AM »

Quote

Those bunkers will probably outlast me.One can say many bad things about the Germans - but they sure know how to build stuff.

Yeah, I hear they make very efficient ovens.

Quote

Perhaps it can help to explain why Europe nowadays is reluctant to go to war. The population has twice gone through the two most devastating wars in human history. It's entrenched in the collective European psyche. The American civilian population at large did not suffer during WWII

Yes, all those empty chairs at the families reunions are easily dismissed.

Of course those young men went all the way to the other side of the planet to lay down their blood and their lives to liberate someone else's home. They sacrificed their lives to liberate countries that almost certainly would have never lifted a finger to help us if the tables were turned.

And for their efforts, filth countries like france spend the next 50 years spitting on their flag and stabbing their country in the back every chance they got.

All things considered, they should have just stayed home on the farm and lived a long life with their families, and let the eruo-trash learn to goose step.

Wab

SLO · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2003, 09:00:49 AM »

breath little wabbit....ya gonna bust a vein.....errr wait a minute.....forget that...go ahead bust a vein:D

from your post AMERICANS won WW1...Americans WON WW2.....Americans won Korea....Vietnam

take a chill pill partner...or smoke a good 1....you need to re-read your History...try books not writin by an American....ya might get a different version.

germans acted like complete bellybutton wipes in the early century.....now there ok....in the late century...americans acted an are still actin like ass-wipes:eek:

now thats just my opinion

Saurdaukar · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2003, 09:03:35 AM »

Santa - some good points. Id love to comment, but I really need a cigarette.

Cant imagine what it would be like to be exploring German bunkers as a child instead of ponds and forests. It must have a profound impact on European children - they can touch whats left, we in the States have books and museums - not quite the same thing.

The only real historical "war" sites are left over from the Revolution and the Civil War. They lose some of there impact because they are "preserved." As you stated, seeing ACHTUNG! on a building or peice of equipment that HASNT been preserved, but simply remains must be a strange feeling.