Originally posted by Lance
I said logic, Hang, not emotion:D
A) Where is this evidence? Where are the money trails, the arms deals, the passports, the training grounds, the safehouses, etc... that Iraq provides for terrorists to strike at us? We have such evidence for Afganistan, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Where is this evidence where Iraq is concerned? Where was it in Powell's presentation?
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OK, there are two ways to reply to this one. Neither is really watertight, but bare with me ok.
1) The US government say that they have evidence. Problem is this evidence cannot really be used to convince the masses, simply because it would be really dumb to waste those intel sources. For example, suppose Mossad has an agent deep inside Al Queida who travels with one of the top leaders. This agent has reported that roughly 50 Al Queida operatives are currently in Northern Iraq preparing the defence against the Americans. Now, would it be a good idea to let this kind of info get out into the media? "Yes, we have a spy in an Al Queida cell in northern Iraq, and he tells us there are 50 terrorists there". First it would only get your spy killed, second no one would believe you anyway "where is the proof" the french would cry, while a Mossad agent is being tortured to death in the sands of N Iraq.
My point here is that sometimes we have to trust our government. Now this might be easier for some to accept than others, but the simple fact of the matter is that a Government
cannot let the people take part in every single desicion, nor can a government explain every single action it takes. Simply because the people can not, and must not, know everything the government does.
2) If we are to build a case against Iraq using only open sources, I think the following is damaging for Iraq:
- The fact that Al Queida members are hiding and working in Iraq, and not being persued by Iraqi security forces
-source Powells speech.-The fact that said Al Queida cell is specialized in the use of B&C weapons.
-same source- The fact that Saddam pays $25 000 to the family of any suicide bomber attacking US or Israel
-plenty of sources, can provide exact quotes if you will from MSNBC, CNN or Time.com - Iraq have probably already given nerve gas substance to Islamic extremists.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/ A42876-2002Dec11.html
-Bin Laden openly declaring support for Iraq in speech. Calling on all moslems to fight for Iraq etc
-OBL speech, here taken from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59551-2003Feb11.html -Iraq training terrorists.
-Not a web source, but a newspaper article. NY times Oct 14th 2001. Here is a quote. If you doubt the source, let me know and I'll see what more I can dig up on the web:
Interview with Sabah Khodada, defected Iraqi army captain, was member of "Division of special operations". (questions bolded)
[SNIP]
What kind of training went on, and who was being trained?
Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of buses, public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of operations related to terrorism.
...
Non-Iraqis were trained separately from us. There were strict orders not to meet with them and not to talk to them. And even when they conduct their training, their training has to occur at times different from the times when we, the Iraqis, conduct our own training.
So you were training Iraqis, Saddam's fedayeen [Saddam's Fighters], members of the militia in Iraq. And someone else, other groups, were training the non-Iraqis?
They were special trainers or teachers from the Iraqi intelligence and al-Mukhabarat. And those same trainers or teachers will train the fedayeen, the Iraqi fedayeen, and also the same group of those teachers will train the non-Iraqis, foreigners who are in the camp. ...
And the foreign nationals, the Arabs who are there, but who are not Iraqis -- what were they like? Were they Egyptians, Saudis? Do you know where they came from?
They look like they're mostly from the Gulf, sometimes from areas close to Yemen, from their dark skin and short bodies. And they also are Muslims. ...
...
And the training also included how to prepare for suicidal operations. For example, they will train them how to belt themselves around with explosives, and jump in a place and explode themselves out as part of the suicidal training. I think the training of the Arabs was much harsher, and much stricter, than the training of the Iraqis.
Why?
Because we know that Arabs, non-Iraqis who come to train in these kind of camps, are going to be sent to very dangerous and important operations outside Iraq; not inside Iraq. ...
They trained people to hijack airplanes?
Yes.
For what purpose?
... It has been said openly in the media and even to us, from the highest command, that the purpose of establishing Saddam's Fighters is to attack American targets and American interests. This is known. There's no doubt about it.
All this training is directed towards attacking American targets, and American interests. The training does not only include hijacking of planes and sabotage. ... Some other people were trained to do parachuting. Some other areas were training on how to penetrate enemy lines and get information from behind enemy lines. But it's all for the general concept of hitting and attacking American targets and American interests.
Who controlled this operation?
In terms of training, they will train in this special camp. But after this training, they will go in small groups. These small groups are directly connected with Saddam, or to Saddam's son.
[SNIP]
B) It is still a cost of the war that must be paid at some point in time. If you could prove to me that Iraq was a threat to the U.S., I would agree that its justified. As it is, I can't agree.
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I think the best way to answer this question is to take a look at Saddams track record when it comes to dealing with his enemies.
From 1983 to 1988, Iraq used chemical weapons an estimated 195 times, killing about 50,000 Iranian troops.
In 1987-88, Iraq conducted a campaign known as the Anfal, killing an estimated 100,000 Iraqi Kurds. Many were executed or killed by shells. But many also died by having poison gas dropped on them, including mustard gas, which burns, mutates DNA and causes cancer; the nerve gases sarin and tabun, which can kill, paralyze or cause nerve damage; and possibly VX gas and the biological agent atafloxin.
The most famous attack was the gassing of Halabja, a mostly Kurdish city near the Iranian border, on March 16, 1988. Rebel Kurds, working with Iranian troops, had taken the town a few days earlier. The gassing, which killed an estimated 5,000 Kurds, was part of the successful Iraqi counterattack.
During the Gulf War, He launched Scuds at civilian targets in Israel and Saudi Arabia.
As part of the cease-fire that ended the Gulf War and a U.N. resolution, Saddam agreed to give up biological, chemical and nuclear weapons and to submit to inspections. In 91-95, the inspectors oversaw the destruction of all Iraqi wmd's...or so they thought.
When Saddam's son-in-law Hussein Kamel defected to Jordan in 1995, he told inspectors about large hidden quantities of chemical and biological weapons. The Iraqi explanation was that Kamel had been hiding the materials himself.
Saddam publicly promised his errant son-in-law a pardon if he would return to Iraq. Kamel returned on Feb. 20, 1996. He was gunned down Feb. 23.
Ok...so we have this mad dictator who is capable of murdering his own family, gassing civilians and torturing his own people. In what way is he a threat to the US? He is a threat because he hates you, with all the passion a man is capable of hating really. The only thing holding him back is the knowledge that if any attack on the US can be traced back to Iraq, its buh bye Baghdad. That is why he is working through proxy's. One example: Iraq is working together with Hamas in the terror war against Israel (training/funding/equipment). Al Queida is recruiting from Hamas (Hamas is focused on Israel, there are no known Hamas attacks on US interests) or more specifically, Al Queida are recruiting Hamas members that wants to hit the US instead of Israel. That way Iraq can support Al Queida with training and funding indirectly.
C) Its easy to say diddly the world, you're with us or against us. But it is not the smartest thing to do. In our war on terror, the rest of the world can aid us, or they can hinder us. If we go out and turn world opinion against us, it will be that much harder to get other governments to cooperate in the future when we're going after more legitimate threats. I don't agree that we should be making such a stand in order to topple Saddam Hussein. Again, if you could convince me that Saddam Hussein equals terrorists equals dead Americans, I might be persuaded.
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I'm working on that (see above)
