Author Topic: Nice 20/20 about our glorious airforce  (Read 2329 times)

Offline Kanth

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Nice 20/20 about our glorious airforce
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2003, 11:32:07 AM »
scroll up if I'm man enough for ya ;)

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
ok kanth... am i simply argueing with a woman here or



can you back up what you say?  


lazs
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2003, 11:51:05 AM »
kanth, I read the link and didn't find any reference to her beating any male boxers.    conversely.... some big fat out of shape bozo like joey butafuko kicked the crap out of "the worlds fittest woman" and dozens of men from andy kaufman to disc jokey in the bay area hjave made the same challenge I have and none of em have been beaten by women.... now... let's say that you could find one woman to kick my bellybutton in the ring (highly unlikely) what would that prove?   that maybe  1 in a million women could defeat a 53 year old man in hand to hand combat so therefore it is ok to put women in combat roles?

I don't believe that you will be seeing any profesional fights that are not gender restricted.    I consider hand to hand combat to be professional fighting.   I don't think that it is me that is out of touch here.
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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2003, 11:51:26 AM »
And therein lies the PC roadkill that totally skews this issue.

Coerced sex is technically any sex that wasn't the woman's idea in the first place, while she was sober and well rested. The whole thing is purely subjective and is entirely impossible to prove one way or the other. Coerced and Forced are not interchangeable words.


Sex against ones will due to a knife to the throat of serious repercussions to career etc is rape in my book.

You're naeive if you define rape as physically forced to put out or physically so restrained intercourse cannot be avoided.

And you're totally wrong if you assign blame to the woman - the man can choose NOT to force himself on the woman. He can choose NOT to violate her. No matter what she does if she says no, that is it. If he forces himself despite a no, it is rape, whether done with a knife of threats to career, job., family or whatever.

You're essentially saying that if a woman is told 'either have sex with me or I kill your entire family' she is not forced to have sex, rather she is coerced. I find that ridiculous.

Still a BS way to track things. If you knew some of the people (men and women) that went into the military, you'd undestand the room for things like this to happen.

Sure, it will happen. But the blame is on the men who do it. Not the women. Not society. Not the institutions. Those entities aren't forcing the man to violate the woman.

You'll also find many of the same issues in regards to what is able to be charged. Its very difficult to prove these situations... especially in the greyer "I was coerced" sides of the house... or when alchohol was involved and judgement/memory is impared.

That's up to a jury to decide in that case. I'm talking about where to place blame.

I'm not trying to excuse rape, nor say the women could have avoided the situation all together. I wasn't there. I am trying to say that the Academies do a decent job given the concentration of testosteron on the campus in comparison to other schools.

And you're implicitly saying that because the woman engaged in high risk activities, she should have expected it. I.e she was partly to blame for it.

I disagree with this. You might like drinking with your friends and do so without having any urge to get shagged by them. We have Rule of Law - and yer entitled to drink with friends, and they're not entitled to shag you without your consent.

I get REALLY upset when people say it's the girls own fault. She didn't elect to get raped. The MEN doing the RAPING ACTIVELY make a choice. They are to blame.

Sure the girl can minimize the risk, but when a rape happens, it's the criminal doing the rape that is to blame for it.

I am on the shooting range,putting up targets. I could be somewhere else, thus minimizing the risk of getting shot. Now the bastard at the other end DELIBERATELY aim for me and shoots me. Who's to blame - me or him? Should I accept part of the blame because I was on the shooting range, knowing that he might get a psychosis and decide to shoot me? Hell no. Sure, I entered into it knowing about the risk, fair enough. But the blaim is solely in one place - on the person deliberately taking action.

You send them to the Academy to learn to behave proffessionally. There is a reason you have to teach them. They are kids that need to be turned into men.

And thy aren't turned into men by letting them get away wth rape. If anything, rape should be so vigorously prosecuted that those kids learn it's wrong mo matter what.

Prison can incidentally also turn boys into men. That should be on the kids minds. Not protecting them after they rape.

MiniD


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« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 11:54:53 AM by StSanta »

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2003, 12:27:43 PM »
That everything maybe easier in black and white,
but the world is made in shades of gray, whether it is convenient for you personally or not.

In other words, it's okay to put women who can do the job into the role that they are the best at. Because they are the best at it.

 Generally women don't have the strength needed to do hand to hand combat, but then if there are a few that excel at it, that are built like mammoth and kick some ass..what reason is there to keep them out only because they aren't men.

 Makes no sense, it'd be like a judge just throwing the book at everyone who comes in because he'd probably be putting some criminals away but is too lazy to try the cases.

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I am 53 and can kick the crap out of any woman alive in hand to hand. I don't want them fighting alongside me. (and yes... all those tv shows that have women beating up men are full of toejam and you are a moron for thinking it's possible)
lazs


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
  that maybe  1 in a million women could defeat a 53 year old man in hand to hand combat so therefore it is ok to put women in combat roles?
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2003, 01:07:29 PM »
kanth... you are taking me out of context...  I did not admit that 1 in 1million women could defeat  me... I said that even if they could it wouldn't prove your case.

your analodgy about the judge is wrong.   First... you have failed to show an example of a woman that can "kick ass"   against.... well... the men she would be facing in real combat.   No proffesional fight that I know of is not gender specific.   I consider combat to be professional  fighting.   I would say that the risks to the other soldiers are too high to be PC about this.

certainly you are correct in pointing out that mine and your generations have different views but... there is no physical evolutionary change that I know of.   I see no evidence of it... to the contrary... I see that the things we believed are born out..  I see no women in tough man competitions or pro football or any real contact sport ...  Thjey are all gender specific.  whenever we have one of these woman vs man circus events the woman gets slaughtered ....  

now... testoserone is the wild card... women body builders take testoserone but ... doctors will tell you that as they become stronger... approch male strength and muscle mass... they become less female.    Basicly.... any women that took enough testosterone to compete with men would not be in much danger of rape in any case.... which brings us full circle.
lazs

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2003, 01:20:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
Sex against ones will due to a knife to the throat of serious repercussions to career etc is rape in my book.

You're naeive if you define rape as physically forced to put out or physically so restrained intercourse cannot be avoided.
Naeive? right.

Naeive is believing that rape is strictly defined by what one party says about their willingness to participate after the fact.

It is wrong for someone to coerce someone to have sex with them.  OK... fine... but its also impossible to prove and its also purely subjective in view.  Thus it becomes PC.

You see, it doesn't have to be a "do this or something will happen to you".  It could be a classmate that just asked and the woman was afraid that if she said no then something would happen... with no inferance involved.  That is what rape has boiled down to.  Its not a matter of "she said no, you did" anymore.  Its a matter of "she should not have been put in the position to have to decide wether or not to say no".

If you were in the military, you'd understand.  Rape by military standards is not a "more liberal" definition than in civilian life... it is more strict.  And it is, at times, complete roadkill.

MiniD

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2003, 01:28:04 PM »
The quotes I took from you are within context, first you say it's "impossible" and if you don't believe it's impossible, you are a moron, then you say it "is" possible.

  So we've gone from impossible (which is a word that means something btw) to possible.

Then you go on to say it's not likely, to which I have agreed. Still you have failed to address:

For what reason should a woman who *can* kick a professional combatants bellybutton be kept from doing so in a combatant situtation??  

like I've said before, I believe that if someone isn't good enough for the job, they don't get it. That's my logic.

what's yours?


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
kanth... you are taking me out of context...  I did not admit that 1 in 1million women could defeat  me... I said that even if they could it wouldn't prove your case.

your analodgy about the judge is wrong.   First... you have failed to show an example of a woman that can "kick ass"   against.... well... the men she would be facing in real combat.   No proffesional fight that I know of is not gender specific.   I consider combat to be professional  fighting.   I would say that the risks to the other soldiers are too high to be PC about this.

certainly you are correct in pointing out that mine and your generations have different views but... there is no physical evolutionary change that I know of.   I see no evidence of it... to the contrary... I see that the things we believed are born out..  I see no women in tough man competitions or pro football or any real contact sport ...  Thjey are all gender specific.  whenever we have one of these woman vs man circus events the woman gets slaughtered ....  

now... testoserone is the wild card... women body builders take testoserone but ... doctors will tell you that as they become stronger... approch male strength and muscle mass... they become less female.    Basicly.... any women that took enough testosterone to compete with men would not be in much danger of rape in any case.... which brings us full circle.
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2003, 02:08:25 PM »
Hangtime: If Miko thinks he cannot personally educate his daughters on appropriate behavior and defensive/avoidance proceedures, it is the fault of the state sponsored education system.

 As usuall, you are claiming a complete opposite to what I really posted. Just read my post again.

 I said that I would certainly teach my daughter(s) how to deal with sex and unwanted sexual advances. Never said otherwise. Here it is: "On which I replied "Well, we can raise them in a way that they cannot be taken advantage of no matter what is done to others..." " and "She can try to not to participate in any activities that would give anyone reason to blackmail her...". That's your responcible behavior and everything included right there.

 What I do not want to teach my daughters is that our military is an assemblage of corrupted rapists and careerist cowards.

 You may believe that since it is "the REAL deal", we should all accept that and teach our children to accept that. That is of course your prerogative. You are certainly free to teach your daughter to put out to a superior or to keep her mouth shut when her friend is raped, or to stay away from the military. After all, that is how our America is working today, and we would not want to change anything...


Mathman: doesn't mean that all the males in the Air Force are rapists...

 Certaily not. But it looked like almost all of the males in that academy - as well as the females were covering for those rapists by keeping their mouths shut.

If you go by this logic, you should believe that all men are rapists, murderers, thieves...

 Guess what - most of them really would be if their superiors, educators and authorities taught them to be all those despicable things. That is what the administration of teh academy was doing. By not throwing the book on the first rapist it sent a message to everyone that rape is OK.

 I would even say that by providing a tool for a rapist to use the senior officers were accomplices. After all, the rapist did so because the victim could not resist in fear of her career. but it would not have been a cadet rapist destroying her career but a superior officers. If one guy is raping a woman and another one is threatening her to stay still, aren't they equally guilty?

 miko

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2003, 02:18:45 PM »
kanth... I will let everyone read what I wrote and let them decide if you were taking me out of context or not.   "even if"  is not the same as "possible".   In retrospect I suppose that impossible is a tad too strong... I normally try to avoid words like "never" or "impossible".   In this case, for all practical purposses tho..

but..  lets say that you can find some miniscule fraction of a percent of women that can compete in hand to hand combat against men....  How would you test?   but more importantly.... why would you bother.. in this case generalizing is much more efficient.  You would waste a lot of time and resources for something that very few people want and that would be of little or no value other than for PC purposses.

I guess that you are looking at it as an issue... a fairness issue as applies to human rights... I am looking at it from a practical standpoint and a fairness issue as it applies to the men who would be affected.
lazs

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2003, 02:43:58 PM »
Okay I am going to weed thru this and try to address some points not to weaken your argument but to point out what I am addressing as I see it.

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

but..  lets say that you can find some miniscule fraction of a percent of women that can compete in hand to hand combat against men....  How would you test?



How do you test men who are going into infantry positions?

Quote


  but more importantly.... why would you bother.. in this case generalizing is much more efficient.  You would waste a lot of time and resources for something that very few people want and that would be of little or no value other than for PC purposses.



See my other post about the judge and the cases, you do bother because there is the possibility for excellence.

The more sweeping generalizations are made, the more value falls through the cracks.

Quote

[/B]
I guess that you are looking at it as an issue... a fairness issue as applies to human rights... I am looking at it from a practical standpoint and a fairness issue as it applies to the men who would be affected.
lazs [/B]


 As far as a fairness issue goes, as I said, the people who can best do the job should be doing it. I fail to see the unfairness in this for either gender. I think you are coming from a perspective that men belong and women do not and so in order to place a woman into the job is an unfair burden upon the men.

 The problem is that men do not belong any more than women do.

 I could argue that since men commit most of the violent crimes in america, in order to stop most of the crime we should confine all men.

I'm sure some quick camps could be constructed.

why bother weeding out the ones that have no tendencies towards violence? that's just feel good PC crap isn't it.

Generalizing is efficient you are very correct about that, but when it affects individuals quality of life, the persuit of freedom and happiness, it's wrong.

  This country was founded on PC feel good crap.

 I would also argue that this is what has made the U.S.A the best place to live on earth.
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2003, 02:46:57 PM »
Lazs,

 Women should be subject to the same qualification tests as men for the same jobs - which do not necessarily involve hand-to-hand for pilots. Very few would pass but those that do should not be prevented from doing what they can just to save some scum from "temptation".
 Otherwise we should shut up about Taliban keeping women home and covered. That was to prevent temptation too.

 Believe me, if a man can refuse advances of willing beautifull women if he thinks that sex is not the right thing to do right now, the soldier should be able to resist raping his subordinate.

 miko

Offline Mathman

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« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2003, 05:16:12 PM »
Quote
Certaily not. But it looked like almost all of the males in that academy - as well as the females were covering for those rapists by keeping their mouths shut.


So, everyone, even those that may not have known about it or only heard one side was covering up for it?

Let me put forth a scenario for you:

A friend of mine comes up to me and tells me that he had sex with a girl at this party last night.  I don't know if he did or didn't, because I wasn't at the party.  All I know is what he told me.  Lets say that two weeks later, it comes out that he raped the girl and the sex was most definitely not consensual.  Does that make me guilty of a cover up if I don't say anything?  As far as I knew, before the girl said she was raped, was that my friend and her had sex and it was consensual.

Things aren't always as black and white as you may want them to be.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2003, 05:24:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Certaily not. But it looked like almost all of the males in that academy - as well as the females were covering for those rapists by keeping their mouths shut.
I particularly like "But it looked like..."

Once again Miko, it was 20/20.  They show you what they want you to see.  If they want it to look like a coverup, they ask questions they know they will not get answers to and present it as if it is a coverup.  Then you get to use wonderfull statements like "But it looked like..."

MiniD

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2003, 05:32:16 PM »
The military should be and is held to a higher standard than their civilian counterparts. Discipline is very important to the military to ensure it's success. It's success is important to all of us.

The breach of trust that some in the military are guilty of is especially reprehensible for the reason I mentioned as well as it offers an opportunity for those idiots that think we don't need a military to get in their cheap shots.

But anyone that thinks that the problems found in the military aren't mirrored and even multiplied by our society is suffering from self delusion.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2003, 08:32:40 PM »
Quote
What I do not want to teach my daughters is that our military is an assemblage of corrupted rapists and careerist cowards.


That line, and the brunt of your post is implying that that is EXACTLY what you think they are.. based on the 20/20 episode.

You flip flop more than a hooked fish in the scuppers. So which is it.. the military is a breeding ground of corrupted rapists and careerist criminals or is it not?

PICK ONE. Either 20/20 is full of toejam or the american military is corrupt and incompetent, miko. Can't have it both ways.

Quote
You are certainly free to teach your daughter to put out to a superior or to keep her mouth shut when her friend is raped, or to stay away from the military.


Horseshit again, Miko. I'd teach my daughter to use her head and stay the hell outta situations that could lead to trouble. I'd have her watch that freakin trash piece by 20/20, tell her what I think about 20/20 and let her make up her own gawdamned mind about her carreer and college. The Sex Education bit was handled when she was 12-14, and she's been choosing her own friends and associates since she was old enough to understand right from wrong.

Piety don't smell good on parents, Miko.
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