Fifty years

[AKIron]

#3 is reserved for those guys that did the top secret deeds

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Boroda
Very nice to hear such things from an amazinhunk that said geoncide in Srpska Krajna was only a "nessesary measure".

GH, my family suffered enough in the 30s. Now I look around and see that 90% of government administration deserves to be hanged on the street lamps, together with 99.9% of our beloved Militia. All I want is some responsibility for them. Maybe not even cutting trees for life, but at least the prohibition to get government jobs again.

So you'd want to suffer again?!   I fail to understand the methodology in this.  How can you praise an ignorant leader who decimated every "satellite" country he had control of?  I'm glad Hungary tried in 1956.  He raped and plundered every country of vital resources.   HE had all of the money, not the working person.  

A "USSR" would crumble within itself in today's environment.  It wouldn't last, regardless of the quantity of pictures of a man to me, who IS and WAS worse than Hitler.  Hitler was no slouch.  But, to sit there and defend him, makes me think you are associated somehow in the realm of "ultranationalism".   The guy was a sick individual like Hitler.  He killed so many of his countrymen, soldier casulties notwithstanding.   Your logic escapes me and I'm sure, others.  

Good luck with life.

Karaya2

[Masherbrum]

Henry Ford was as anti-semetic as they came.  He'd never make it.   Wonder why Hitler had his portrait behind his desk?

Karaya2

[lazs2]

Audey Murphy would make me proud to honor with a day.
lazs

[Toad]

Boroda, do you want to start with the Third Partition of Poland?

[Toad]

While you're deciding if you truly want to delve into who stole who's land first.....

You can have some fun with this:

It’s absolutely true that the Soviet Union played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany in WW2. For this, for the courage displayed and the suffering endured, the armed forces of the USSR might be admired.

However, for me, this admiration must be counterbalanced against the other deeds of the Soviet regime.

In the famine of 1921 alone, estimates are that some five million Russians perished. Most authorities place the total loss of Russian life for the years 1914 to 1922, the period of war and civil war, foreign intervention, drought and famine at 20 million. In addition, industrial production and capacity were driven back to levels existing prior to 1900.


This is, after all, the same country that deliberately starved about 6 million of its own Ukrainian population in 1932-33.

This is, after all the same regime that imprisoned many of its own population in the Gulag Archipelago ~1936-1938 with grim results. How many of those died?

http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html

“In the original version of his book The Great Terror, Robert Conquest gave the following estimates of those arrested, executed, and incarcerated during the height of the Purge:

Arrests, 1937-1938 - about 7 million
Executed - about 1 million
Died in camps - about 2 million
In prison, late 1938 - about 1 million
In camps, late 1938 - about 8 million

Conquest concluded that "not more than 10 percent of those then in camp survived." Updating his figures in the late 1980’s based on recently-released archival sources, he increased the number of "arrests" to 8 million, but reduced the number in camps to "7 million, or even a little less." This would give a total death toll for the main Purge period of just under ten million people. About 98 percent of the dead (Gendercide Watch's calculation) were male.”
 
Can you say “Russian Holocaust”?

This is, after all, the same regime that signed a mutual non-aggression treaty with Nazi Germany on August 23, 1939, the Molotov- Ribbentrop Treaty.  

http://www.humboldt.edu/~rescuers/book/Makuch/molrib.html

“Molotov Ribbentrop Treaty
On August 23, 1939 Hitler and Stalin signed a non-aggression pact, called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. Secret protocols of the treaty defined the territorial spheres of influence Germany and Russia would have after a successful invasion of Poland. Hitler had been creating justifications and laying plans for such an invasion since April.

According to the agreement, Russia would have control over Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, while Germany would gain control over Lithuania and Danzig. Poland would be partitioned into three major areas. The Warthland area, bordering Germany would be annexed outright to the German Reich, and all non-German inhabitants expelled to the east. Over 77,000 square miles of eastern Polish lands, with a population of over thirteen million would become Russian territory. The central area would become a German protectorate, named the General Government, governed by a German civil authority.

On September 1,1939 Hitler's forces invaded Poland from the west. According to plan, Soviet troops invaded Polish territory from the east on September 17. Poland surrendered on September 27. The next day Poland was partitioned according to the treaty's scheme, ending a brief twenty year period as an independent nation. “

[Toad]

When the Soviet Union invaded Poland there were in effect the following treaties and agreements between the governments of Poland and the Soviet Union:

The Peace Treaty between Poland, Russia and the Ukraine signed in Riga, on March 18, 1921, by which the Eastern frontiers of Poland were defined.

The Protocol between Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Rumania and the USSR regarding renunciation of war as an instrument of national policy, signed in Moscow on February 9, 1929.
 
The Non-Aggression Pact between Poland and the USSR signed in Moscow on July 25, 1932.
 
The Protocol signed in Moscow on May 5, 1934 between Poland and the USSR, extending until December 31, 1945, the Non-Aggression Pact of July 25, 1932.
 
The Convention for the Definition of Aggression signed in London on July 3, 1933.

Fine Fellows, don’t you think? Trustworthy, admirable, worthy of adulation.


Wait, don’t decide yet…there’s more “good deeds” to recount before we get to the sacrifice of the Soviet Union in fighting the Germans.


http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/eastbalt.htm


“On June 17th and 18th of 1940, hundreds of thousands of Red Army troops crossed the frontiers and took over the Baltic States.

Between July 14th and July 17th, "elections" were held in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Stalin had so many Baltic Communists killed in purges in 1936 and 1937 that he had trouble finding candidates. However, the Communist majorities were 92.8%, 97.8% and 99.19% respectively. Finally on August 5th, the Supreme Soviet very generously agreed to admit the three republics as constituent members of the USSR In this way three independent, prosperous and civilized countries vanished from the map of Europe.

Stalin was now in a position to implement 0RDER N 0. 001223. During the first year of Soviet occupation of Estonia more than 60,000 persons were killed or deported (on the night of June 13-14, 1941 more than 10,000 people were removed in a mass deportation). During 1941-1944 the Nazis occupied Estonia.

Before the Soviets returned in 1944, over 60,000 Estonians managed to escape from the country. In 1945-1946 Stalin deported another 20,000 people. On March 24-27, 1949, 70,000 more persons were deported.
These were mainly farmers who resisted collectivization.

In Lithuania, on the night of June 14-15, 1941, 30,455 members of the Lithuanian intelligentsia (national guard, civil servants etc.) were deported to Siberia. When the Germans advanced in 1941, Stalin had the approximately 5,000 political prisoners still held in Lithuanian jails executed. When the Nazis took over, approximately 170,000 Jews were exterminated. Before the Soviets returned in 1944, approximately 80,000 Lithuanians managed to escape, but 60,000 were deported to Siberia. In 1945 - 1946 approximately 145,000 Lithuanians were deported. Another 60,O00 were deported in March of 1949 because of collectivization.

During the Winter War the Finns lost 25,000 people fighting the Soviet Union. If they had given in to the Soviet demands, like the three other Baltic States, the chances are that they would have had over 400,000 people killed. It seems that they made the right decision, and at the same time saved the N K V D officers a lot of work.”

Wait! Don’t form an opinion yet! There’s more before the Soviets resist the evil Germans!

Remember Poland? There was a place called Kaytn Forest….

http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/eastbalt.htm

“Fifteen thousand Polish prisoners of war were taken illegally to the Soviet Union and kept in three camps, Kozielsk, Starobielsk and Ostashkov. Many of these people were officers. There were also many reserve officers consisting of University professors, surgeons, engineers, lawyers, teachers, journalists, etc…

When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, the Soviets suffered several military defeats. Their attitude towards the western allies and to Poland therefore changed. A Polish-Soviet treaty was signed in July of 1941 and the organization of a Polish Army in the Soviet Union was immediately begun. A thorough search was made for all Polish prisoners, but about 14,500 could not be found. They were not found until several of them were found by the Germans in mass graves at Katyn, near Smolensk, in April 1943….

The International Commission consisted of doctors from twelve different countries. The Findings were that 4,145 bodies were found in eight mass graves. All of them had been shot in the back of the head. The bodies still had on them personal belongings such as diaries, letters, newspapers, and other items all indicating that the crime took place in the second half of March or in April 1940. The evidence was overwhelming that it had been carried out by the NKVD under direct instructions from Moscow….

All the bodies found at Katyn were of people who came from the camp of Kozielsk. But what happened to the 10,000 or so other prisoners from the other two camps? There is no solid evidence, i.e. no bodies were found, but the inmates of the camp at Starobielsk are believed to have been taken to a place near Kharkov and murdered. The inmates from the camp of Ostashkov are believed to have been taken to the White Sea, put aboard two barges, towed out to sea, and the barges sunk.

Altogether the Soviets arrested 250,000 Polish soldiers. When the NKVD moved into Poland, using their usual methods, an estimated 1,500,000 Poles were deported, and within two years 270,000 were dead.”

Want a bit more? This is the same regime that aided the hated Nazis right up until the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/eastbalt.htm

“Probably Stalin's most successful propaganda coup of all was the propagation of the myth that Soviet territorial acquisitions in 1939 were designed to establish a forward strategic line in case of a German attack. This tale has received wide acceptance, but eighteen months later when Hitler launched his invasion, virtually nothing had been accomplished in the way of fortifications, defensive lines or military airfields to exploit ground gained by the Nazi-Soviet Pact. In fact, the national armies of Finland, Romania and the Baltic States would have protected Stalin's flanks. As it was, Finland and Romania were turned into effective allies of the Germans, and the Baltic States provided Hitler with excellent troops.

Hitler gained a great deal from the pact. Provision was made for the supply from Russia of a million tons of grain for cattle, 900,000 tons of mineral oil, 100,000 tons of cotton, 500,000 tons of phosphates, 100,000 tons of chrome ore, 500,000 tons of iron ore, 300,000 tons of scrap iron and pig iron, and numerous other commodities vital to the German war effort.

While Hitler was fighting Britain and France, the Soviet Union was supplying him with his raw materials. Not only that , but they were helping Hitler to break Britain's blockade by supplying rubber and other essential supplies by transporting them on the Trans-Siberian Railway. It is interesting to note that while Stalin was supplying Hitler with thousands of tons of grain, his own people were starving.

While the Soviet Union held back from joining Germany as a belligerent, she furnished Germany with military co-operation far beyond that which the United States was giving Britain at that time. The German navy was allowed facilities at Murmansk on a scale which contrasts favorably in many ways with restrictions placed on Allied use of the same port between 1941 and 1945.

The German liner "Bremen" found refuge there, as did a succession of blockade-breaking vessels; and measures violating international law were adopted by the Soviet authorities to allow the Germans to escape with a captured American merchant ship, "City of Flint".

German auxiliary cruisers were equipped at Murmansk for raids on British shipping.

More than this, the Soviets actually allowed Germany her own naval base on Soviet soil near Murmansk. It proved to be a valuable base for U-Boats operating in the North Sea, and played an important role helping supply Hitler's invasion of Norway. The Soviets helped a German raiding cruiser, "Schiff 45", to make her way through the ice around Siberia to the Pacific, where she sank and captured 64,000 tons of allied shipping. In this and other ways the Soviet Government lent enormous assistance to the otherwise extremely vulnerable German Navy.”

Of course, this is also the same regime that signed the 13 April 1941 Soviet-Japanese non-aggression pact. Perhaps the Japanese should have talked to the Poles first?

Just in time though, because on June 22, the “two thieves” fell out. Hitler’s Germany turned upon Stalin’s Soviet Union and the Soviets glorious chance to stop helping and start fighting the Germans finally arrived.

Eventually, the Soviets decisively beat the Germans.

When it was all over, this is the same regime that Poland, Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria came to know so well. But that’s another story.

Glorify who you will. Admire who you will. If this Regime is heroic to you, so be it.

Perhaps you can ignore the true nature of that Regime simply because when the “two thieves” finally had a falling out, one set of thieves and murderers helped defeat the other set of thieves and murderers that started the Second World War.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Toad
Boroda, do you want to start with the Third Partition of Poland?

International borders in Europe are guaranteed by Helsinki Act of 1975.

AFAIK the only undefined borders in Europe are between Russia and Estonia and on Cyprus.

Toad, as many educated Russians I share a "guilt complex" towards Poland, so your picking on me is annoying. My Grandfather, the one who was an Imperial dragoon officer, graduated from Warsaw univercity in 1914. You want to call him an occupant? BTW, he spoke Polish perfectly.

[Toad]

You're the one talking about 1920...... now it's 1975?

IIRC, the Third Partition of Poland, with Catherine acting for Russia is where this little "who owns what" argument starts in that part of the world.

[fd ski]

Toad, skip the partitions. Different time, different issues. Simply a question of political opportunism. Germany and Austria were just as guilty.

As for the war of 1920... it started bit earlier. Poland before partitions of 1772 ( first partition ) encompased better part of today's Bialorus, Ukraine and Lithuenia. After WWI we wanted it back and were going to take it, whether everyone liked it or not.
What was forgotten was the fact that before 1772 poland ruled those areas ( with exception of Lithuenia ) on the master/slave level and slaves weren't quite ready to come back to the old situation. ( i think there has been a uprising against poland in ukraine every 3 years from 1500 to 1772 )

Whether CCCP stepped in with excuse or simply used it as an excuse for its own purpose is a question of persepctive. Ukrainians didn't like CCCP any better then they did Poland. ( still don't )

One thing is for sure. Poland of 1920 sure as hell wasn't very innocent.