Author Topic: Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?  (Read 1285 times)

Offline Jigster

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2001, 01:57:00 AM »
Yall are forgetting one important aspect of what's happening when that engine is running at full throttle at stall speeds. All that propwash is going directly over the tail so that the control surfaces retain atleast some effectiveness (Thats how planes taxi, how airboat and hovercraft steer, etc) so that there is still something countering torque.

Notice the size of the N1K1-Ja's tail and rudder and that of the N1K2-J full lenght rudder:

     

     

     

     

And besides, refering to the N1K1-Ja as a monster was not just because of the tail problems. The thing was literally a monstrosity...like the engine which had known problems due to resource and maintence problems due to complexity, but namely the gear system. It was awkward, as it telescoped before retracting which rarely worked right and ended up with alot of belly landings...all due to the mid-wing configuration. Try to imagine an F4U with straight wings...that pretty much what the N1K1-Ja was.

The N1K2 lowered the wing, fixed the gear problem, and several other aerodynamic problems including the tail and the accumulative problems with take off and landing.

The entire N1K series was said great low-speed handling however...mostly due to the automatic flap system. The flaps were quite large, and their deployment actual deployment characteristics was interesting ...they are called butterfly flaps. They are already to small in AH...they barely make it to the frontal edge of the ailerons. And the wing tips are tapered a bit to much.     They are deployed here:

     

I keep hoping Pyro will answer my FM question from above...



[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 05-09-2001).]

Offline R4M

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2001, 03:15:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by juzz:

And isn't it odd how the Fw 190A-5, which is about the same size and weight as the N1K2-J but with 240HP less and a smaller rudder, is just as lacking in "torque" effects...

Oh, Juzz, I dont say that the N1K2 lacks torque. I say that ALL the planes in AH lack it. Compare 1.03FM torque with the one we have now. Now it is laughable comparing with the previous FM's. I understand that the E-keeping now is way higher than what it used to be (because something wrong about too much drag at high Gs in the previous FM?) but I dont see how that can mean the sudden, massive drop of the torque effects in AH.

And in any case I DO feel some effects of torque in the 190 I dont feel in the N1K2. Go figure.


Sling............learn to read, please. I will quote my words again.....

"I said that "From being a monster (The N1K1-J) it changed to be the kitty it is in AH (the N1K2-j)""

Is the third time I quote the same passage...maybe now you will get it?  


Offline R4M

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2001, 03:18:00 AM »
BTW how stupid were the British and german designers...if only the British had fitted a bigger rudder to the typhoon, the massive problems given by the torque would've been so easily fixed...

same with the 109G10 and K4, planes with so big engine in a small airframe that suffered of massive torque (Again, not in AH)...if only the germans had added a bit of rudder area the problem would've SO easily fixed...

All designers were stupid, xcept the japanese. Lol.  

funked

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2001, 03:24:00 AM »
The "massive" problem with the Typhoon was the reliability of the sleeve-valve engine.

According to the Pilot's Notes, swinging to starboard on takeoff was only a problem if the throttle was opened suddenly at the beginning of the takeoff roll when using 30 degree flap setting.  Otherwise the rudder and rudder trim were entirely adequate.

Interesting also to note that the aileron control was "light and effective up to the maximum permissible speed" which was 525 mph indicated.  It was however "sluggish at low speeds and heavy when carrying bombs".

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-09-2001).]

Offline Pepe

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2001, 04:19:00 AM »
Just an illiterate question here:

Wasn't it right that certain planes (the torque-prone ones, read: BIG engines, HUGE horsepower) could flip over wing if the pilot firewalled the throtle on Take off, even before they move forward?. If so, where this behaviour is modelled?

I repeat, It is not a twisted way of arguing, just curiosity, I've heard or read it somewhere.

Cheers,

Pepe.

Offline R4M

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2001, 05:24:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by funked:
The "massive" problem with the Typhoon was the reliability of the sleeve-valve engine.

According to the Pilot's Notes, swinging to starboard on takeoff was only a problem if the throttle was opened suddenly at the beginning of the takeoff roll when using 30 degree flap setting.  Otherwise the rudder and rudder trim were entirely adequate.

Interesting also to note that the aileron control was "light and effective up to the maximum permissible speed" which was 525 mph indicated.  It was however "sluggish at low speeds and heavy when carrying bombs".

The RAF airfield architects were drunk when they removed the right-side hangars from the extreme sides of the field, then?.

Wow, lots of whisky they had to drink. I used to think that the removal of those hangars was because tyffies used to smash there because the torque made them yaw and squid so hard...

But yes, they quitted those hangars while they were drunk. yeah right  

Talking about serious trouble, I would say that the falling tail was the worse one. You know, when your engine dies at least you can glide, but when your tail goes out to take a beer...well...lets say you dont have a chance.

And dont tell me that this was adressed with the strenghtening of the tail. It was PARTIALLY adressed. Proof of that is that since the strenghtening of the tail until the last identified loss because a tail fell off the plane,there were 26 documented losses. Only 2 of the 26 pilots involved survived. And the last typhoon lost because this failure was in 18-July-1945.

Oh, and BTW the NACA test roll charts show indeed a "light aileron" typhoon. In AH, I mean,because real life's typhoon rolled more or less like a Zero (roll of wich is also grossly overmodelled in AH  )

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-09-2001).]

Offline juzz

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2001, 05:26:00 AM »
Well - sorry RAM, if I somehow got the mistaken impression that you only apply the "torqueless wonder" comments to the N1K2-J...

Offline R4M

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2001, 05:41:00 AM »
I've said lots of times that IMO one of the reasons of the N1K2's UFO abilities at low speeds is because the lack of torque...torque wich also has been severely turned down in all the rest of the planes. In the previous FM it was VERY noticeable. Now is nowhere (in comparison).

Now, if you people,and HTC,keep on insisting that the current modelling of the torque effects is accurate then I have to say that the RAF men who quitted those hangars from the right side of their fields had to be drunk. And that the reported massive torque in the 109K4 was only because the test pilots were having a hangover from the previous night's orgy.

And if you say that from a plane said to have nasty torque effects (N1K1), its sucessor (N1K2) had almost nil torque effects with the simple change of the vertical stabilizator surface (yes I know the wing and landin gear were changed, but that had nothing to do with torque),  then I repeat that IMO RAF and LW experts were idiots for not putting a bigger rudder in the so-hard-yawing Tiffie and K4 (well, I mean, if the test pilots were indeed not drunk when tehy tested those planes reporting great torque)


[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-09-2001).]

Offline flakbait

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2001, 06:33:00 AM »
Pepe,

I'd imagine so. Then again I've got a photo of a P-47 that dumped a 500 pounder on landing, got blown in half, and the pilot survived! Odds are it's one of those things that depends on the situation. I know if you firewalled the gas on an F8F the thing required a LOAD of aileron to keep level for takeoff. Maybe it would roll under the right circumstances. Gyroscopic effect seems rather faint, since you can floor it in any plane with nearly no roll effect. It could be a bug, something that was overlooked, or an item that's not here yet. You'd have to bug Pyro about it.

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Offline Kieran

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2001, 07:20:00 AM »
 

Offline Pepe

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2001, 07:39:00 AM »
Thanks for the answer, flakbait  

Offline Lephturn

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2001, 08:49:00 AM »
Pepe,

Don't forget, we can't duplicate "firewalling the throttle".  We just don't do that.  Our engine controls are simplified such that we can't really do what they did.  If you went from very low RPM to very high RPM very quickly, sure you could likely flip some of the big radials.  The problem is, our throttle is a combination of RPM and manifold pressure, so when we "firewall the throttle", the RPM ramps up smoothly as more manifold pressure is applied instead of just a really fast jump in RPM.  We just can't duplicate those conditions with our simplified controls, so we don't see the same results.

It's silly to try and judge torque sitting on the ground.  Do it in flight and you'll see the results.  Try to do low speed loops in a N1k2 and film it.  Now go back and watch with trails on.  Unless you conteracted the torque a LOT, you won't have vertical loops.

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Offline Dowding

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2001, 09:05:00 AM »
 
Quote
...26 documented losses...

Do me a favour RAM and express that as a percentage of the production after the tail modifications. Thanks.

While you're at it compare the value you get with the rate of air-frame failures attributed to other problems (obviously while in service and after the quality control checks).

Think of it as taking away the 'background' from your recorded data.
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Offline Toad

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2001, 09:37:00 AM »
Incredible as it may seem Dowding, there was NO aircombat in WW2.

All losses were actually on takeoff, due to the inability of mere humans to handle the huge torque.

No one wanted to admit this of course, so a solution had to be found.


Everyday, the opposing commands sent each other their total losses and they mutually agreed to make up stories about air battles for the public.

That's how it all really happened.


 
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Offline straffo

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Pyro's opinion on 3 flight modelling items?
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2001, 09:43:00 AM »
Spited my café around Toad  

<edit> re-reading my msg I've the strange feeling that I've done YetAnotherGrammarError ...
why don't you use french ?  

[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 05-09-2001).]