Author Topic: First Korea, now Iran (Read 1933 times)

-tronski- · « **Reply #45 on:** March 11, 2003, 06:37:29 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
The only one who can lift those sanctions is Saddam, quite easily too. DO try to remember why the sanctions are in place.

IF the main reason for war is to elevate the aparent suffering of the Iraqi people, would not lifting the sanctions accomplish that?

Oh sorry, I thought we were talking about the average Iraqi. DO try to remember the context of your question.

Tronsky

-tronski- · « **Reply #46 on:** March 11, 2003, 06:42:53 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
You sound like an heretic Tronski !

Beware I'm the next pope

I have almost been burnt at the odd cross here and there my Gallic friend

Tronsky

Hortlund · « **Reply #47 on:** March 11, 2003, 06:51:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by -tronski-
IF the main reason for war is to elevate the aparent suffering of the Iraqi people, would not lifting the sanctions accomplish that?

Oh sorry, I thought we were talking about the average Iraqi. DO try to remember the context of your question.

Tronsky

It is not the main reason for war. It is one of the positive side effects of the war.

And the "lets lift the sanctions to ease the suffering of the Iraqis"-notion is also wrong. There is an "oil for food" program in place right now that allows Iraq to sell oil to buy food and medicine for its citizens. The food and medicine doesnt seem to filter down to the citizens though...for some reason...and oddly enough, the Iraqis are buying other stuff than food and medicine for those oil money (ask France for example).

straffo · « **Reply #48 on:** March 11, 2003, 06:59:42 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
I see you dont want to answer the question either Straffo...howcome?

what question ?

Hortlund · « **Reply #49 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:01:31 AM »

Do you think life for the average Iraqi would be better or not if Saddam was removed/killed/abducted?

straffo · « **Reply #50 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:04:09 AM »

with or without blocus ?

Hortlund · « **Reply #51 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:08:16 AM »

I think its safe to assume that when Saddam goes, so does the Iraqi WMD program, and with that, the sanctions.

In fact, after the war, when Saddam is gone, the sanctions will not only be lifted, but the US will be pumping in billions of dollars to rebuild Iraq.

-tronski- · « **Reply #52 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:19:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
It is not the main reason for war. It is one of the positive side effects of the war.

And the "lets lift the sanctions to ease the suffering of the Iraqis"-notion is also wrong. There is an "oil for food" program in place right now that allows Iraq to sell oil to buy food and medicine for its citizens. The food and medicine doesnt seem to filter down to the citizens though...for some reason...and oddly enough, the Iraqis are buying other stuff than food and medicine for those oil money (ask France for example).

And yet the obligatory stab at France still manages to make an appearance. Bloody French, they should just sell steel to Iraq...thats apparently far more legitimate.

Hans Van Sponeck, the UN Humanitarian Co-ordinator in Iraq denied any evidence of wharehousing of medicines and food bought by Oil for Food. He blamed the bureaucracy of the oil for food program. Denis Halliday the first UN Co-ordinator blamed contract delays, contract holds, and distribution problems accountable for the medical supplies problem.
A UN Sub-Commission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights report in 21st June 2000: The sanctions regime against Iraq is unequivocally illegal under existing international humanitarian law and human rights law

Tronsky

straffo · « **Reply #53 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:20:45 AM »

So we have 3 possibility :

[list=a]

return to pre-1991 Iraqi status
statu-quo
post-sadam pro-american governement

Hortlund · « **Reply #54 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:32:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
So we have 3 possibility :

[list=a]
return to pre-1991 Iraqi status
statu-quo
post-sadam pro-american governement
[/list=a]

A : not probable , but living under a dictature when you have enought food is not a major catastrophe lot of people have survived under such circonstances.

My opinion : better living condition , not freedom of thought

B : actual :
bad living condition , no freedom of thought

C : hypothetic :
better living condition , freedom of thought ... perhaps.

As you can notice I restricted living condition to the physiologic
part as I don't know if there is an international definition [/B]

"No freedom of thought"? Are you joking? Saddam pre 91 is the one gassing his own citizens, the one having a security apparatus using torture, rape and murder to keep the people in line. This is cavalierly reduced to "no freedom of thought" in your opinion?

But ok, leaving that aside. Is your answer yes or no?
Will the average Iraqi have a better life if Saddam is removed?

Saintaw · « **Reply #55 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:33:49 AM »

[edited: need to take my phosphorus pills on time]

Hortlund · « **Reply #56 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:36:18 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by -tronski-
A UN Sub-Commission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights report in 21st June 2000: The sanctions regime against Iraq is unequivocally illegal under existing international humanitarian law and human rights law

Well obviously they are wrong since the sanctions are ordered by the UNSC in accordance to the UN treaty. It is pretty damn irrelevant what some UN sub committe thought about the sanctions and their relation to international law.

Hortlund · « **Reply #57 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:42:13 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Saintaw
I did not question that fact Hortlund,
What I question is Mr X's supposed interest in the joe shmoe Iraqi's life value. Read again what I said...

I think Mr X and I share a somewhat similar view on this issue. One of the positive side effects of a war with Iraq will be the drastic improvement for the average Iraqi.

I mean think about it:
-No more sanctions.
-No more secret police torturing and murdering people opposed to the current regime.
-No more brainwashing of kids in the schools.

Instead you get:
-Plenty of food
-Plenty of income (Iraq is a very very rich country)
-Basic human rights guaranteed and protected

Now, as I have been saying, this is not the primary reason why we are going to war, but it is a positive side effect.

For the Iraqis, and anyone really caring about their plight, this side effect should be reason enough to support the war.

Saintaw · « **Reply #58 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:49:47 AM »

[edited out]

straffo · « **Reply #59 on:** March 11, 2003, 07:54:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
But ok, leaving that aside. Is your answer yes or no?
Will the average Iraqi have a better life if Saddam is removed?

I already answered.