Author Topic: Why I am agianst a US invasion of Iraq, why I think we're doing it and my hopes  (Read 1888 times)

Offline Karnak

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Thanks for the comments, both for and against my position.


Rip,

Did you read what I had written, or just jump to Copy Paste routine?  I'm just curious because you seem inordinantly fond of that particular piece of spin doctoring.
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Offline beet1e

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Originally posted by ra
You don't know if Iraq has WMD because while they acknowledged having tons of them 10 years ago and agreed to destroy them in a verifiable way, they have not.   9/11 proves that there is an international network in place which would be eager to use WMD.   Hussein doesn't have to use them, just make them available to those who will.   That is why his 10 years of violating UN resolutions are no longer acceptable to the US.   Every week the UN delays this war, there are more opportunities for these weapons to be distributed.

The UN is useless.

ra
I agree with ra. (Both paragraphs) As for the UN, its father was a hamster, and its mother smelled of elderberries. I fart in its general direction.

Offline Sikboy

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Well done Karnak.

It takes conviction to write down something like that. Most of us are lazy (or perhaps weary is a better term?), and fall back on the party lines.  When you put the effort into a post like this, and it is dissmissed out of hand, it really makes one wonder why they spent the effort in the first place.

I for one fall into the "it could increase our security" camp, but I understand and respect your point of view. I'm glad that you wrote this.

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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Ripsnort

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Originally posted by Karnak
Thanks for the comments, both for and against my position.


Rip,

Did you read what I had written, or just jump to Copy Paste routine?  I'm just curious because you seem inordinantly fond of that particular piece of spin doctoring.


I read it ,disagreed with most of it, and replied in many threads that have been discussed in this forum on the same subject. I've been just copying and pasting what I agree with lately. Your commentary was vague to me, with answer likes "I don't know" and "Yes. This is too clear to need an explanation." I felt it was poorly written arguement.
Besides our opinion will not sway anyone elses opinion.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2003, 10:41:59 AM by Ripsnort »

Offline AKIron

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Originally posted by Hortlund
Maybe not, but you WILL be disappointed when the prize of gasoline in the US quadruples.


Maybe that's what we need to spur the development of alternative fuels. Hydrogen powered vehicles look promising.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Pepe

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Karnak,

I'm probably on the antipodes of your stance, since the "party lines" in Spain are exactly yours. However, my opinion about war is also the opposite to yours.

Let's make myself clear, as it's something that has been very cleverly manipulated by a lot of people in my country. I am against war. Period. But the question is not wether one is against or pro war. I don't think anybody in his right mind wants war, only that some of us think that the price of a war is cheaper by a fair margin to the price of no-war. I'm talking both money and victims-wise. No-war has scarcely brought peace througout history.

War on Iraq is fought in 3 fronts, from my perspective:

a) Economic one:

Everyone tries to defend it's own interests. For me is, by far, the less relevant. For France, and it's my personal believing, the most important one. But they are clever enough to dress their position up, and discuss the war on other terms, instead of this one.

In this particular field, the question is wether is it economically clever to wage war to remove a dictator able to use Oil as a weapon. This is very cynical to answer, but I think it makes all sense, economically speaking, even if the reserves in Iraq are not profitables to exploit (as it seems to be the case).


b) Phillosophical one:

The point is wether the world is entitled to wage war to free a country's people from a dictatorship or, more widely, from an oppression regime.

I don't think there is a yes/no answer to this question. I think it's a matter of fields. There is one where there is no justification for an external intervention, when the "oppression" does not involve serious human rights violations. There is the other one where I think there is absoutely no justification NOT to intervene as, for instance, the Balcans. When you see mass murder and wide abuse of human beings, I think people supporting human rights have all the right to sack the mad dictator (and the system and people supporting him) for good. Do we have to wait to see mass murder in Iraq or by Saddam's regime? Is it not enough Saddam's track record? From my point of view, it is more than justified to intervene and remove Saddam and his people from power. Probably there are more places in the world where this must be done, but first ones first. I don't care if he decides to leave and face International Trial or If US (let's face it, nobody but US can) need to send troops there, the important thing is he and his system are out.


c) The threat one:

Is it Iraq a threat to western countries? I can concur that not immediately, in the sense that he (Saddam) has no means of directly put a bomb in any country right now. But defintely he is a threat in the medium and long run. I don't think anybody can argue against this, especially if the situation, previous to US and UK pressure, continued. I have to remember that Saddam was vowing to unilaterally decreet the end of embargo. Do you think that an embargo-less Iraq is not a threat?. How about Oil dollars as the fuel of a weapon race? Especially with trustfully providers as some western countries?.

There is another facet of the issue. If you do not effectively remove (and by means of a very expeditive action) Saddam, you are giving clues to any other dictatorship that he can play cat and mouse with the world, in the right assumption that internal divisions would render the world unite action a chimera.


As far as the "legality" of the action, and with regards to UN sanction, the UN is not a representative chamber, nor is a decission-making body. UN is the outcome of a huge world confrontation and the cold war situation. Worked good to keep us away from a nuclear holocaust in a world divided in two clear-cut groups, where the lines were precisely and neatly drawn. But that is not the situation anymore. If there is a positive consequence of the current crisis is the perception that UN, as it is now, is absolutely useless. And I am not saying that we should get rid of it, but I'm absolutely certain that failing a reform, a deep, fundamental one, the whole institution will be meaningless in a few years. I am glad that the crisis has arisen with Iraq and not, say, with China. The world is still on time to revise the UN's role and make the so badly needed improvements.

Finally, with regards to EU, I'm glad that France and Germany, most notably France, pull out the mask. They do not pretend a united federal thingy, but they want a meek group of countries to foloow up the "leaders". Let me tell you one thing. On my particular side, France has done nothing good to my country since XIV century. I have nothing to thank them but pain. They even invaded us. I don't trust  French goverment (not talking about French people here) a single bit. And were French and Germany the ones breaking up the so called "European unity" by making a bold joint statement without even ask the rest of European countries. What they expected? Blind obedience of their inferior counterparties?

So let me resume my position:

First and above all, I am against war. Period.

Second, both in economical, geo-political and philosophic field I think the world is entitled to force the retirement of Saddam and his regime, even if this envolves the use of force. Even more so, I think that without the real threat of a war, Saddam's position would have never moved. So, as a consequence, you have to be ready to wage war.

Third, I am glad that the situation has rose the point about the real usefullness of UN as an institution and the absolute need of its reform.

Fourth, I'm absolutely proud of my country's decission. Both in terms of personal coherence of my president, and in terms of not bending to political and social pressure. I don't think that the average joe (like myself) can go much further than speculating on this boards as to what our country needs to do and how real is Saddam as a menace to us. We simply lack the information. So I trust my government to take the right decissions. I'm not ignoring facts, and I try to be informed as to be clear about my next voting. At the time being, I support his position, except for the information managing, and the attitude.


Sorry for the brick.

Offline Creamo

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Originally posted by Toad
Gasoline wouldn't disappear, just become expensive. Like a lot of other things. I've got some 25 year old MacAllan. It's expensive. But I don't drink it every day. ;)

I'm not saying it wouldn't be tough and disruptive, but I am saying we'll come out the other side and probably be the better for the experience.

 


:rolleyes:

Fool

Offline Toad

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Excellent ad hominem!

Very much in character and taken for what it's worth. :D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline -dead-

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Originally posted by Dowding
Well look at that! Ripsnort knows how to use ctrl+c and ctrl+v!
I bet he doesn't. I reckon he uses the edit menu. ;)
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline Creamo

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Toad, your so self absorbed, you'd post that stupid toejam 'ad hominem' which ironically, no one cares what it means.

You cocked off about owning rare scotch, on a topic regarding gas prices. Hello? They are impending doom for airlines. This 'war' in Iraq started months ago for U.S. airlines you dolt. No shots need be fired, my point, fool.

Your cocking off about your rare scotch is laughable while our industry collapses.

I still don't get your enthusiasm and clearly pointless posts regarding this.

Offline Toad

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Sorry if it's over your head Creamo.

I'm sure it will come to you eventually.

As for the airlines, you may blame the war or 9/11 or whatever you wish.

Fact remains some airlines are making money.. a very few... and those are structured in a  radically different way from the dinosaurs you and I work for. The inability to adjust to a changing marketplace is killing the majors. They continue, as they have over the past 20 years, to demand that the marketplace adjust to them. Looks like the day or reckoning finally arrived.

But, I don't expect you to understand that concept either.

:D

PS: If my airline disappears, I won't. I think I'll find something to turn my hand to which will support me and mine in a sufficient way. No slashed wrists here... it's life. My brother's been with two airlines that are no longer in existence and is now watching the third self-destruct. He's still here, with other irons in the fire.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Creamo

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Gasoline wouldn't disappear, just become expensive. Like a lot of other things. I've got some 25 year old MacAllan. It's expensive.


Nope, it NEVER will.

Offline 10Bears

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I am 10Bears Whooper of Toad...

You need a hand here Creamo?

Offline Dowding

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I've been just copying and pasting what I agree with lately.


Only 'lately'?
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline AKIron

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Originally posted by Creamo
You cocked off about owning rare scotch, on a topic regarding gas prices. Hello? They are impending doom for airlines. This 'war' in Iraq started months ago for U.S. airlines you dolt. No shots need be fired, my point, fool.


Creamo, don't they successfully operate privately owned airlines in some of those countries with already high gas prices? Just a matter of adjustment, sure it may be painful for a while, we'll survive. Get  clue, please.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.