Why I am agianst a US invasion of Iraq, why I think we're doing it and my hopes

[Karnak]

There is a vast amount of venom being put forth on this board.  People are attacking others with raw emotion and reason has fled the field.  The mocking, simplistic slogans are ruling the day.

None of this is good.

Let me try to bring a rational, unemotional, flavor to this "debate".

I'll start with what I believe is happening.

1)  Is this war about oil?

Yes and no.  Of course it is about oil on the large scale.  If it weren't for the oil in the Middle East none of the rich nations would care about it (example: Africa) and we wouldn't be there.  If we weren't there we wouldn't be pissing off the lunatic religious freaks and they wouldn't be attacking us.  However, I do not believe that Bush is after Iraq's oil.  I believe Bush is trying to bring stability and freedom to the region.  I believe that Cheney and Rumsfeld sold invading Iraq to Bush on that level, but they themselves suggested a Pax Americana starting with Iraq in 1996,  I believe that Cheney and Rumsfeld are exploiting the 9-11 attack to move forward on their Pax Americana idea.  I do not believe that Bush subscribes to the Pax Americana idea, at least not in the fashion of Cheney and Rumsfeld.  If he does subscribe, it is to gain security for the USA.

2) Is Iraq an immenient threat to the US?

No.  Iraq has been effectively contained by the US and UK lead UN sactions and inspections.  Iraq has not attacked the US in the 12 years of the sanctions, nor (that I am aware of) attempted to.  Hussein's primary goal is to remain alive and in power, attacking the USA directly or by proxy using terrorists is the best way for him to ensure his death.

3) Is Iraq in violation of the various UN Resolutions?

Yes.  This is too clear to need an explanation.

4) Would Hussein be co-operating to the extent that he is if there weren't 200,00 American and 40,000 British troops on his borders?

No.  Anybody who thinks he would be doing so is naive in the extreme.

5) Does Iraq possess WMD?

I don't know.  However, I don't think this matters as they are already in breach of the UN Resolutions.  I do not believe that Iraq is stupid enough to use them in anything other that a last stand.

6) Are the anti-war people afraid (myself included)?

By and large, no.  They simply have different concerns.  I'll eloborate shortly.

7) Are the pro-war people afraid?

By and large, no.  I'll eloborate shortly.

8) Is Saddam Hussein an absolute bastard and murderer?

Yes.  This cannot be rationally argued any other way.


Why I think an invasion of Iraq is a mistake

I believe that Hussein has been effectively contained for the past 12 years.  I do not believe that it is worth throwing away our international Allies in order to remove a two-bit dictator from power.

Why?

We cannot effectively fight the War on Terror by ourselves.  We rely on the Intelligence agencies and counter-terrorism units of our allies to cover vastly more territory that our resources can by themselves.  Further our allies such as the UK, France and Russia have experience in different aspects and places of terrorism than we do.  Combined we are far more effective than any one nation could be alone.

I do not believe that toppling said dictator is worth toppling our closest and most dependable ally, Tony Blair and the UK.  This is not how we should treat our true friends and the USA has no truer friend than the UK.

Alienating ourselves from our allies and increasing the hatred directed at us simultaneously seems to me to be the height of folly.  What do I mean?  I mean that while there are homicidal/sucidal fanatics that hate us and attack us right now the majority of Middle-Easterners simply don't like and don't trust us.  Invading one of their sovereign nations will convince many more of them that the lunatic fanatics are correct about us and they will join in attacking us, either directly or by providing aid.


Addressing point 6 from above, my concerns (and I believe the concerns of most anti-war people) are that we will in fact be reducing our security by attacking Iraq.  I am not afraid of a war with Iraq, I am simply concerned that it will hurt our country.

Addressing point 7 from above, I believe that most pro-war people are in favor of attacking Iraq because they believe it will increase the security of our nation.

Both sides (the rational members of each side at least) have the same desire in mind, the good of our country.  Both sides need to respect that and cease demonizing the other.  We all want what is best for our country.

I do not see a significant downside to going along with Chirac's position that we let the Weapons Inspectors continue their work and invade when the Inspectors say that it is time to invade.



My hopes

All of that is, I think, moot.  I think that we will invade shortly, perhaps with the UK, perhaps without and Saddam will be no more.

I truely hope that it goes as the Bush and Blair Administrations say it will and I truely hope that the outcome is as rosey as envisioned by the pro-war people.

I hope this because I want the best for my country.

[Rockstar]

I like fluffy bunnys

[BUG_EAF322]

An american with common sense

[ra]

"5) Does Iraq possess WMD?

I don't know. However, I don't think this matters as they are already in breach of the UN Resolutions. I do not believe that Iraq is stupid enough to use them in anything other that a last stand. "



You don't know if Iraq has WMD because while they acknowledged having tons of them 10 years ago and agreed to destroy them in a verifiable way, they have not.   9/11 proves that there is an international network in place which would be eager to use WMD.   Hussein doesn't have to use them, just make them available to those who will.   That is why his 10 years of violating UN resolutions are no longer acceptable to the US.   Every week the UN delays this war, there are more opportunities for these weapons to be distributed.

The UN is useless.

ra

[Toad]

What it is about now is the will of the International Community of Nations.

There can be no doubt Hussein is in violation of the will of the International Community as expressed by the sanctions. (Note I said Hussein, not Iraq).

There can be no doubt that the International Community of Nations has repeated warned him that action would be taken over the last 12  years unless he complied.

So, admittedly due to Bush forcing the issue, this is now about whether the International Community of Nations is going to follow through on their warnings.

I'm against action by the US without the sanction of the UN Security Council. I also feel that the SC has waited far too long to deal with Hussein, so it is time.

I won't be disappointed in the least if the US gets UN SC approval to act.

I won't be disappointed in the least if the US does not get UN SC approval and the US removes all troops from the region and brings them home immediately, with a solemn pledge not to return to the region no matter what.

Following that, I'd like to see US troops immediately pulled out of Europe, including the Balkans, simultaneously recalling all forces in Korea and Japan.

Any problems that then arise can be dealt with by the UN SC in the same fashion that Hussein was handled.

Returning troops can be used here to secure the borders and inspecting the cargo coming in through the seaports.

I see no need to fight a war in Iraq without the sanction of the UN SC.

[CyranoAH]

Guys, this thread is getting suspiciously well argumented and spoken. I think it has to be moved from the O'Club unless someone posts "Deth to Amereeka" or something like that.

Daniel

[Ripsnort]

Leftists: We are in a rush to war.
Answer: An 11-year rush?

Leftists: Tough inspections can disarm Saddam Hussein without invading Iraq.
Answer: Years of inspections have done wonders so far.

Leftists: We should let the inspectors finish their job.
Answer: We did. They didn't. We will.

Leftists: Why fight? The Iraqi military is weaker than in 1991.
Answer: But their biological weapons and chemical weapons are much more dangerous.
Leftists: There's no proof of weapons.
Answer: We know they have 'em, we know they hide 'em, and we have tape recordings and photographs. What more is needed? An Iraqi rocket in Martin Sheen's shorts?
Leftists: If we invade, Saddam Hussein might use those weapons of mass destruction against us.
Answer: I thought you said Iraq didn't have them!

Leftists: But terrorists might attack if we invade Iraq.
Answer: Oh…so if we don't attack Iraq, terrorists will never strike again?

Leftists: We shouldn't go to war without a UN resolution.
Answer: ANOTHER resolution? What about the last 16 resolutions? Shall we use them as wallpaper? Or shall we use the same resolutions Bill Clinton used in Bosnia?

Leftists: We don't have a real declaration for war.
Answer: It's called "Joint Congressional Resolution #114."

Leftists: If North Korea has nuclear weapons, why aren't we invading them first?
Answer: First things first.
North Korea has not invaded two neighboring countries within the past two decades. Iraq did.
North Korea does not pay $20,000 in blood money to the families of terrorist murderers. Iraq does.
North Korea has not used nerve gas and mustard gas against invaded countries as well as its own citizens. It's merely starving them. Iraq HAS used poison gases.
Iraq, not North Korea, welcomes and houses Arab terrorists who despise Israel and its only ally in the world, America. There are more reasons, but these will do.

Leftists: European leaders are against the war.
Answer: The Reichstag wasn't attacked. The Grande Palace wasn't attacked. The Kremlin wasn't attacked. And the Jerry Lewis Lifetime Achievement Museum wasn't attacked. America was attacked. And besides, except for the tantrums of France, Belgium and Germany, only three European nations aren't willing to defend freedom. The entire rest of Europe is with America.

Leftists: The French don't support the war.
Answer: Oh…did they surrender already?

Leftists: Germany objects to this war.
Answer: Germany objected to Reagan's "attitude" towards the Soviet Union. Of course, they objected to our presence in 1943 as well.

Leftists: Belgians are against the war.
Answer: I can live without Waffles and ice cream.

Leftists: Russia doesn't support the war.
Answer: They are still angry over Reagan's brilliant Cold War victory.

Leftists: Polls show Europeans are against this war.
Answer: Polls show Europeans believe their freedom was achieved by endlessly debating in marvelous dining halls, conveniently forgetting their right to be pompous blowhards was granted with American blood, not fabulous wine and brie…

Leftists: We should build a coalition with our friends.
Answer: With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Leftists: What happens if we can't build a United Nations coalition?
Answer: Who cares?

Leftists: But the UN is the world's most respected governing body.
Answer: Not as respected as the US military.

Leftists: America has always waited until enemies attacked.
Answer: Now that oceans can't hold back enemies, pre-emptive war is forever a necessity.

Leftists: War will cost billions!
Answer: So…how much is YOUR city worth?

Leftists: President Bush says he's willing to violating the 1976 executive order forbidding assassinations of foreign leaders.
Answer: As soon as the ink is dry on rescinding that idiotic order, will someone please pull the trigger? The line forms to the right…

Leftists: Many Senators don't support Bush
Answer: Are you speaking of the Senators from Bordeaux?

Leftists: Tom Daschle says George Bush has a "credibility gap"
Answer: When was the last time we came to Tom Daschle for the truth???

Leftists: These problems didn't happen under Clinton.
Answer: Actually, they happened. But Clinton ignored them. Now, Bush will clean up his mess.

Leftists: But Clinton didn't start a war.
Answer: Unless his girlfriend was testifying before congress…

Leftists: Bush 1st should have taken out Hussein in '91.
Answer: That 1991 UN resolution forbade a march on Baghdad. Remember?

Leftists: Millions of peace activists are demanding we stop the war.
Answer: Millions of Iraqi's are begging for us to start the war.

Leftists: Thousands of innocents will be killed or injured.
Answer: That's a lot less than Hussein is killing right now. (Of course, there's only one man that needs to be killed…)

Leftists: Young Americans will die in battle.
Answer: Would you prefer they die in skyscrapers?

Leftists: Protesters have genuine objections to war
Answer: Just like they did in Somalia? Bosnia?

Leftists: People are coming from all over the world to act as "human shields".
Answer: Quick, hurry, before the bombs start dropping…

Leftists: This is about American Imperialism.
Answer: So which country do we own? What nation sends us their tax dollars? If America was imperialist, we'd already own the entire world. Who could stand in our way?

Leftists: This is Blood for Oil
Answer: The only blood is the Iraqi people tortured, starved and killed while Hussein builds massive palaces to hide nuclear weapons…all financed with Iraqi oil.

Leftists: This is a racist war.
Answer: America happily endorses a multi-cultural attitude towards anyone who dares to take away our freedom.Regardless of race, color or creed, we hunt them down and kill them.
Leftists: A U.S.-led invasion of Iraq is a great recruiting tool for terrorists.
Answer: Have fun recruiting people into oppressive misery as they enjoy their first taste of freedom.

Leftists: An attack on Iraq could seriously undermine and destabilize Arab nations.
Answer: Destabilize the region? Is that possible? Do you think? The sooner we topple these tlineoppressive 14th century terrorist regimes the better.

Leftists: Are we prepared for a multi-billion dollar occupation?
Answer: Were we prepared to liberate Europe and Japan in 1945? South Korea in 1953? Grenada? El Salvador? Kuwait? The Eastern Bloc? Afghanistan? Nations always love Americans when we rescue them from tyranny. The price of freedom is never free.

Leftists: Polls show Americans are more concerned about the threat from al-Qaeda than from Iraq.
Answer: It's not a war against Al Qaeda. It's not a war against Iraq. It's a war against terrorism. Anywhere we find it. One nation at a time.

Leftists: American opinion is against the war.
Answer: No, it's not. A majority of Americans want to fight now, not later.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Toad
I won't be disappointed in the least if the US does not get UN SC approvaland the US removes all troops from the region and brings them home immediately, with a solemn pledge not to return to the region no matter what.

Maybe not, but you WILL be disappointed when the prize of gasoline in the US quadruples.

[CyranoAH]

Now that's more like it...

[straffo]

Sorry I'm late .

As an inestimable contribution to this thread :


BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH !


Now I'm going back to work ...




you think it's ok Daniel ?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Maybe not, but you WILL be disappointed when the prize of gasoline in the US quadruples.

Nope.

I'll change my lifestyle to accomodate that. The price of gas in Europe is about quadruple ours.... they survived.

It would probably be THE impetus needed to move technology forward on alternative fuel vehicles.

It'd be tough, but in the end, it'd probably be a good thing.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Toad
I'll change my lifestyle to accomodate that.  

Do you think lazs will?

[john9001]

africa has oil , but the oil companys can't find workers to drill for it, they don't want to be killed, the oil fields in sudan ( and other countrys ) are right in the middle of a war zone.

[Toad]

Having met Laz personally, I'm SURE he would.

Laz folks and my folks are the generation that grew up during the Depression. If they did that, so can I. So can he.

Gasoline wouldn't disappear, just become expensive. Like a lot of other things. I've got some 25 year old MacAllan. It's expensive. But I don't drink it every day.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be tough and disruptive, but I am saying we'll come out the other side and probably be the better for the experience.

It'd sure show some of the current crybaby crowd the difference between now and truly tough times.

[Dowding]

Well look at that! Ripsnort knows how to use ctrl+c and ctrl+v!

Well said, Karnak, I broadly agree with what you are saying.